-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Pure BEV Dogma
- Thread starter bonnie
- Start date
But a Model T is way simpler than a Model S. You can't equate simplicity to EVness. If you look at the terms they all involve moving the car forward.
EV - Electric motive force
HEV - Hybrid motive force, part Electric, part ICE; not compete ICE or EV drive.
PHEV - Hybrid motive force, part Electric, part ICE; not complete ICE or EV drive. You can plug in to save a small amount fuel.
then you have the Volt/Karma generator or board EVs.
EREV - I don't really like this term but is seems appropriate
GEV - Generator Electric Vehicle
PGEV - Plug in Generator Electric Vehicle
This got pointed out before but a Plug in Prius is a Hybrid car. It cant go faster than 40, or accelerate at real world rates without its ICE. A Volt/Karma can function as a real car on EV only mode. And these cars can not function without their EV drive at all! A Prius can operate without its EV power train, not fully but it can operate. The Volt* and Karma can't.
Then if you power your Tesla Model S with a gasoline generator does that make it a Hybrid? What if that generator was on a trailer? What if you put the generator in the trunk? When does the care become Hybrid? The Volt/Karma are pure EVs. They just happen to have an electricity generation plant carried around with them at all times. Should we call your Model S a coal/nuclear/solar/wind Hybrid Electric Vehicle?
* NOTE: I realize that the Volt has a stupidly complex charging/assist mechanism. And the ICE in theory can assist the drive wheels directly. But this is not entirely true, and in actuality the ICE can NOT power the car forward at all. There is a quote and link at the bottom. Basically there are 2 electric motors. The drive motor, connects directly to the wheels. The generation motor, which can also assist the wheels, is connected to both the drive wheels and ICE. And finally the ICE which is connected to the generation motor. Now GM developed a really complex gearset that actually connects them all together. So in theory the ICE can move the drive wheels. But it cant. It can only provide torque when both other motors are also providing torque (one in drive, the other in generation). And the gearset basically is a mechanical efficiency switch.
Shocker: Volt's gas engine is indeed mechanically connected to the drivetrain (updated with GM engineer's response) -- Engadget
I always call them "plug-in hybrids". It was the simplest way to explain it to people at the auto show. They understand immediately, and many were shocked to discover the Volt was a hybrid (there was one opposite my car, so it came up a lot).
But that's no good if you have to keep another one with a tailpipe in the garage.
But I hope you also explained that unlike other plug-in hybrids, you can do most of your driving without using a drop of gas.
I tend to use the term plug-in hybrid or PHEV. If the conversation goes any further, I explain the pros and cons of the three that are available. I find the term "range extender" (which I quickly translate to "gas generator") useful when discussing the Karma or the Volt. I don't find it particularly useful when discussing the Plug-in Prius.
Not so bad if the backup car only gets used maybe one day a month, and extra parking is available.
Besides, a gas/petrol rental could substitute for those ready to let go of the long distance road trip car.
But, unlike me, you do regular long drives, so the need for the gas mode is much greater for you.
Did you consider getting a shorter range EV (like the LEAF) as your local car and just rent/hire a car when you need to do a long distance business trip?
This is what I am saying about having a whole other car - with embodied materials and emissions - sitting around doing nothing for 95% of the time.
I did but it doesn't work for me. OK, if I have to go somewhere at very short notice I could drive to a rental station and get one - but at the end of the day I'd rather have an EV with a small battery that meets my weekly needs... and a backup generator.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
People looking for a generic term that includes EVs & PHEVs, should use "Plug-In Cars". GM caused major terminlogy problems with their use of EV for Volt. They wanted the "goodness" that came with the terminology - I think they could have sold more if they had used PHEV or even "Hybrid" to describe the car.
Yes, I always followed up by explaining that the Volt can go 60 km on pure electric, and then it essentially turns into a gasoline hybrid vehicle.
By the way, that reminds me, rental car locations would be a good place for L2 charging stations. You drive up in your EV to rent a "gasser" for that occasional long trip.
I haven't noticed any reports of charging spots being put in rental car locations (except for maybe the ones that rent EVs like the LEAF).
Maybe we need a different topic "charging at rental car offices?"
I do notice L2 going into a lot of airport and train station parking lots... Just not so much for rental car offices.
Depends whether it's a "leftover" car or a new car, surely?
In the case of many people in the US, home of the more-than-2-car-household, the "other car" may simply be the old car that the family doesn't get rid of. So, zero new embodied materials and emissions.
If you have the parking, obviously. You're much less likely to have either the leftover cars or the parking in the UK.
On the third hand, you can drive practically anywhere in England on one charge with the range of the large Model S. Is it worth getting the gas tank, ICE, and all that extra complexity and embedded emissions? Well, it depends. It it worth spending the extra money on the Model S, and taking the extra embedded emissions of aluminium production? It depends. You made your choice, and it's a respectable one -- and it sounds like you made it largely based on the question of what you can afford without borrowing, which is a *very* respectable choice. Costs shoot up when you have to pay interest.
For me, I'm buying in cash, currently earning 0.01% interest. I also I plan to keep the model S long enough that eventually there will be a large fast charging network and I'll be able to drive it everywhere, and at that point I will be glad I didn't get a plug-in hybrid, where the "gas parts" would probably need to be repaired or replaced by then.
You may already be planning to replace your car by then -- in fact, you almost certainly will be, because you said you'd sell the Ampera when someone came out with a 40K GBP (=~ 64K USD) car with fast charging and ~150 miles real range. But wait -- the model S is within inches of that already, mainly not getting there due to Tesla's tendency to price-gouge Europe, and their free choice to deny occasional fast charging on the small battery. In fact, it's so close that I'm sure the car you're looking for will definitely come out within the next decade. In the situation you were in, I would have kept whatever car I already had until your dream car came out, if that had been possible, thus avoiding the embedded emissions of a new car, as well as the "drive it off the lot" depreciation.
By the way, the terms which seem to be both commonly used and understood are:
all-electric vehicle
plug-in hybrid
hybrid
I don't know how to distinguish between the Plug-in Prius and the Volt. "Weak plug-in hybrid" vs. "Strong plug-in hybrid"?!? Both are serial (sometimes)! Both are parallel (sometimes)! "Range extended electric vehicle" is too long to catch on. "X miles all-electric range" works, as does "All-electric up to X mph".
In trains, we have
electric
electrodiesel (like plug-in hybrid)
diesel-electric (like serial hybrid)
diesel-mechanical (like a standard ICE car)
Except diesel-mechanical stopped being built over 50 years ago -- too inefficient -- so in trains "diesel" means "diesel-electric". Little facts like this make me think the mechanical-linkage ICE isn't long for this world, but the serial hybrid may last a while longer.
£40k does not directly translate into $64k in the car market.
I'm expecting the 300 mile Model S to be £65-70k in the UK. If we could all afford to lay that down on a car then we wouldn't be having this discussion and there would be little need for PHEV / ER-EV / whatever. But as we are, pure BEV could meet the needs of the high end of the market and some niches further down. For everyone else there's ER-EV.
I've already held on to my current car way longer than I was planning, in order to meet the "my next car will be electric" aspiration. As it happens, 90% electric will do.
I'm expecting the 300 mile Model S to be £65-70k in the UK. If we could all afford to lay that down on a car then we wouldn't be having this discussion and there would be little need for PHEV / ER-EV / whatever. But as we are, pure BEV could meet the needs of the high end of the market and some niches further down. For everyone else there's ER-EV.
I've already held on to my current car way longer than I was planning, in order to meet the "my next car will be electric" aspiration. As it happens, 90% electric will do.
My backup ICE is a 12 year old car I was planning to dump when I got the LEAF. My plan was to use CHAdeMO for longer trips, and live with the 20-30 minutes every 50-60 miles pit-stop requirement... But, around here I am denied that option due to lack of CHAdeMO, so I have had to keep the backup ICE car longer than planned.
In the UK, I think doing "CHAdeMO hopping" could be an option, but I gather you aren't willing to spend that much time waiting for recharging? And also, maybe you don't trust CHAdeMO reliability / availability completely?
Sounds like some others (e.g., NikkiG-B) have had mixed results trying that.
In the UK, I think doing "CHAdeMO hopping" could be an option, but I gather you aren't willing to spend that much time waiting for recharging? And also, maybe you don't trust CHAdeMO reliability / availability completely?
Sounds like some others (e.g., NikkiG-B) have had mixed results trying that.
When the CHAdeMOs are in place, that will be an option. They should have been hitting the ground by now but it's all gone quiet.
You should know by now that me waiting for recharge isn't a problem... but not at sub-100 mile intervals at 16A rates.
The problem is that "level 3" charging has now become a mess. What we wanted was coherent leadership but the government decided to mandate level 2 and leave 3 up to the market. It's total confusion.
That also had a baring on my decision. I'll take care of my own level 2 and use liquid fast charge until a clear winner emerges.
You should know by now that me waiting for recharge isn't a problem... but not at sub-100 mile intervals at 16A rates.
The problem is that "level 3" charging has now become a mess. What we wanted was coherent leadership but the government decided to mandate level 2 and leave 3 up to the market. It's total confusion.
That also had a baring on my decision. I'll take care of my own level 2 and use liquid fast charge until a clear winner emerges.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
EV when technically used in an acronym, refers only to the drivetrain being electric. Therefore you can also technically say a typical hybrid is an EV, but no one ever says that. This is because "EV" without any modifier is typically used as a synonym for "electric car" which refers to a car powered solely by electricity as an input (no gas tank at all).
I think the most confusion comes when people call the Volt (or the Emerg-E in the original example) an "electric car" or "electric". There's less confusion if more people know about the EREV term and use it or some other term to clarify.
It actually goes up to 62mph. 0-30 is about the same (because the gas engine doesn't have to turn on even in hybrid mode), 0-60 is 20 seconds compared to 11 seconds with the ICE on.
I actually think the operating mode of the two is very similar. The Prius is all-electric up to 62mph (or hard acceleration) and 11 miles. The Volt is all-electric up to 35 miles. Both follow the goal of providing plug-in electric drive most of the time, while having an ICE backup. Neither is inherently superior to each other if the AER and other limits match your daily driving style.
The Prius actually can't function without its electric motors either. It depends entirely on it for low end acceleration. This differentiation isn't how you classify a hybrid though, because what you are describing is a series hybrid.
The car is a hybrid if it uses two or more onboard energy storage systems to power the car. Since any generator+gas tank used with the Model S will never be a permanent part of the car, it's not a hybrid. If it gets integrated into the car, then it is a hybrid.
Typical hybrids also have electricity generation plants carried around with them at all times. That doesn't make they "pure EVs".
The Volt's ICE can't move the wheels on it's own. But it does provide mechanical assistance above 70mph in CS mode (just like a Prius ICE does for highway speeds). That makes it a series-parallel plug-in hybrid. If the ICE was completely decoupled, that makes it a series plug-in hybrid (like the Karma).
Last edited:
The Volt is not just a PHEV, like a PIP. It is better than that.
It is not twice as complex as an EV either. The powertrain is, but modern automobiles have so much more. Like over 100 electric motors in an S-class, or TEN airbags in a Chevy Cruze. Not to mention navigation, telematics, suspension, brakes, entertainment systems, lighting, HVAC, ad nausium. What is the big deal about only ONE extra powertrain!
GSP
Similar threads
