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Pure BEV Dogma

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by bonnie, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. McRat

    McRat Well-Known Member

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    Not talking about nationwide, just California and Oregon where the EV is sold.

    If the Spark EV would have sold OK in California, they probably would have went national.
     
  2. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    I think the Ford Energi models disproves that. Despite being far worse cars than the Volt on paper (practically same starting MSRP, far less AER and practically no trunk space because of how battery pack was put in) they sold quite well.
     
  3. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    It was still a limited range vehicle. It's not "EV" that crippled it, it was the battery pack.
     
  4. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Didn't it have slightly higher range than the Leaf?
     
  5. GSP

    GSP Member

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    I doubt that selling OK would be enough. I think GM would also require a profitable business case. They need to sell zero emissions cars in California, even if they lose money.

    GSP

    - - - Updated - - -

    JRP,

    Thanks for the link. I like the Prius, but much prefer the Volt. The Prius uses less gas than other cars, but does not provide an alternative to gas, like PHEVs do. I like having alternatives.

    You correctly insist that cars like the Ford Energi, Chevy Volt, and BMW i3 REX are all PHEVs. This is correct and they all meet the Society of Automotive Engineers definition of "Hybrid."

    We do see completely different things when we both look at the Chevy Volt. I see an "EV with lots of additional stuff," and you see "an ICE with lots of additional stuff." Both views are valid, I think. The Volt is right at that 50-50 split. I would call the Ford Energi cars the same as you call the Volt.

    However, I am curious how you see the BMW i3 REX. Is this PHEV still "an ICE with lots of additional stuff?"

    GSP
     
  6. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Actually when I see the Volt I see a hybrid since both systems are tightly integrated, the "ICE with additional stuff" comment was simply in response to another comment as another way to look at the vehicle. The i3 hybrid is clearly an EV with a series ICE option added on, since you can buy the EV version, which makes it a series plugin hybrid. If the Volt had been designed from the beginning as an EV and offered with an optional series ICE version I'd see it the same as the i3 hybrid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yes, but slightly is still a limited range vehicle. The Spark EV with a 200+ mile range pack would be the Bolt, which I expect to sell well.
     
  7. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    Heh. This is exactly how I've felt for quite some time. I think it is not accurate to just refer to 'plug-ins' as everything under the sun, and not simply battery electric alone. It is nice to see the sales stats of PHEVs, but they should not be listed alongside those of BEVs.
     
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    • Disagree x 1
  8. Vexar

    Vexar Member

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    This is how VW is saying they can release 30 electrified models in five years. This is how BMW can say the 330i is an electric anything with its 14-mile range. The simple fact is that there is a really short list of passenger EVs that can go 200 miles or more, far less if you exclude China-only brands.
     
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  9. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    Yeah. Ford at least uses the word 'electrified' when referring to their upcoming lineup to arrive by 2020. And upon inspection, the BYD E6 is actually offered for fleet sales in the US. But its EPA rated range falls far short of the supposed 250+ miles the manufacturer claims. And definitely well below 200 miles as well.
     
  10. Takumi

    Takumi Member

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    #1350 Takumi, Aug 9, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
    from GM Chevy Volt

    When you do this, you have transformed the Model X into a hybrid. Hybrids have a permanent baggage if you decide to use only part of it's drivetrain.

    Take a car with three different drivetrains:

    Volt - ICE only (hypothetical)
    Volt - Hybrid (current setup)
    Volt - Pure Battery Electric/EV (hypothetical)

    Load those three up with the same cargo, let's say fish tank, and you'll find that each one drives differently. It may be similar but they will drive differently. It's inherent within the design. Each have their advantage/disadvantage.

    ICE = price advantage (for now)
    Hybrid = fuel economy vs. ICE, range vs. Battery
    Battery = NVH, local air quality

    There's more, but I think you get the idea.

    If you really want to feel the difference in experience, try it with a motorcycle with differing drivetrains. As an example:

    Let's make it really simple to understand:

    Electric (EV) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ICE

    Once you move the mark one point from either end, it becomes a hybrid and that's where the manufacturers come up with different marketing names (E-REV, HSD, etc...)
     
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  11. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    ... after Ford loaded them up with large incentives.
     
  12. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    The experience/use does not define the vehicle, it's design does. Using it on gasoline only does not make it an ICE, neither does using it on battery power only make it an EV. It's always a plugin hybrid, by design and construction.
     
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  13. Drucifer

    Drucifer Active Member

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    True, but have you seen the interior of the top of the line Fusion Energi. It's very nice. Nicer than my Model S (except for the touchscreen, of course)
     
  14. wws

    wws Member

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    Except that if you remove the ICE from the Volt, it will run just fine and at full functionality/performance - for the first 53+ miles. However if you alternatively remove the electric motors, the design won't work. The entire drive train must be replaced with something else. The i3 w/Rex is similar.
     
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  15. Takumi

    Takumi Member

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    Okay, define for me what a series hybrid is, please.

    NM, I'll leave it at you can call it by its marketing name while I'll call it by its scientific name.
     
    • Like x 1
  16. wws

    wws Member

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    The i3 Rex is clearly a series hybrid - when the Rex is running. The Gen 2 Volt is a parallel hybrid - again when the ICE is running. The Gen 1 Volt can go both ways depending on situation. However when running on pure electric, they all perform well and with full functionality.

    Contrast to other competitors like the PiP, Energi, or E-tron. Take out the ICE and you are left with a very poorly performing "EV".

    So I don't fault GM for trying to distinguish the car with a fancy name like "EREV".
     
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  17. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    From my impression, GM loaded the Volt with just as many incentives (maybe more).
     
  18. Drucifer

    Drucifer Active Member

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    My Volt had 400 pounds of gasoline engine ("range extender") and accessories that I only used about 8% of my miles.

    My Model S has 400 pounds of batteries ("way more than I need without taking a trip") that I only use about 8% of my miles.

    Not seeing too much of a difference there, except the packaging on the Tesla is much more efficient.
     
  19. ChadS

    ChadS Last tank of gas: March 2009

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    I see your point, but there is a difference. The extra batteries are not ONLY useful for their extra energy on a long trip. You can also use their extra power when you accelerate; and by cycling the larger pack less, longevity is greater. Having the larger pack size can also make Supercharging faster (though of course that depends on other factors as well).
     
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  20. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Doesn't the Volt ICE come on if it's cold enough?
     

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