Pure BEV Dogma

[McRat]

Last I knew the Spark EV was only available in a few states so any comparison with the Spark ICE, available in all states, proves nothing. It's also a very limited range EV. Make it a 200+ mile range EV and sell it in all states and I'd bet it would outsell the ICE version.

Not talking about nationwide, just California and Oregon where the EV is sold.

If the Spark EV would have sold OK in California, they probably would have went national.

 

[stopcrazypp]

GM has had tragic luck with "Hybrid" sales, and other brands of badged "Hybrid" are also weak sales. They don't save money for many years if ever.
...

I think the Ford Energi models disproves that. Despite being far worse cars than the Volt on paper (practically same starting MSRP, far less AER and practically no trunk space because of how battery pack was put in) they sold quite well.

 

[JRP3]

Not talking about nationwide, just California and Oregon where the EV is sold.

If the Spark EV would have sold OK in California, they probably would have went national.

It was still a limited range vehicle. It's not "EV" that crippled it, it was the battery pack.

 

[dpeilow]

It was still a limited range vehicle. It's not "EV" that crippled it, it was the battery pack.

Didn't it have slightly higher range than the Leaf?

 

[GSP]

Not talking about nationwide, just California and Oregon where the EV is sold.

If the Spark EV would have sold OK in California, they probably would have went national.

I doubt that selling OK would be enough. I think GM would also require a profitable business case. They need to sell zero emissions cars in California, even if they lose money.

GSP

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Or it's an ICE with lots of additional stuff.



http://www.motortrend.com/news/2016-chevrolet-volt-toyota-prius-best-way-to-use-gallon-of-gas/

JRP,

Thanks for the link. I like the Prius, but much prefer the Volt. The Prius uses less gas than other cars, but does not provide an alternative to gas, like PHEVs do. I like having alternatives.

You correctly insist that cars like the Ford Energi, Chevy Volt, and BMW i3 REX are all PHEVs. This is correct and they all meet the Society of Automotive Engineers definition of "Hybrid."

We do see completely different things when we both look at the Chevy Volt. I see an "EV with lots of additional stuff," and you see "an ICE with lots of additional stuff." Both views are valid, I think. The Volt is right at that 50-50 split. I would call the Ford Energi cars the same as you call the Volt.

However, I am curious how you see the BMW i3 REX. Is this PHEV still "an ICE with lots of additional stuff?"

GSP

 

[JRP3]

Actually when I see the Volt I see a hybrid since both systems are tightly integrated, the "ICE with additional stuff" comment was simply in response to another comment as another way to look at the vehicle. The i3 hybrid is clearly an EV with a series ICE option added on, since you can buy the EV version, which makes it a series plugin hybrid. If the Volt had been designed from the beginning as an EV and offered with an optional series ICE version I'd see it the same as the i3 hybrid.

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Didn't it have slightly higher range than the Leaf?

Yes, but slightly is still a limited range vehicle. The Spark EV with a 200+ mile range pack would be the Bolt, which I expect to sell well.

 

[Red Sage]

I am >>so<< tired of extended range cars grabbing the electric moniker. Tired of it! There should be hybrids, electrics, and .. that. EVERs? (electric vehicle extended range) Something to distinguish would be nice. They're taking the EV goodwill and adding gas to it.

-snit over-

Heh. This is exactly how I've felt for quite some time. I think it is not accurate to just refer to 'plug-ins' as everything under the sun, and not simply battery electric alone. It is nice to see the sales stats of PHEVs, but they should not be listed alongside those of BEVs.

 

[Vexar]

Heh. This is exactly how I've felt for quite some time. I think it is not accurate to just refer to 'plug-ins' as everything under the sun, and not simply battery electric alone. It is nice to see the sales stats of PHEVs, but they should not be listed alongside those of BEVs.

This is how VW is saying they can release 30 electrified models in five years. This is how BMW can say the 330i is an electric anything with its 14-mile range. The simple fact is that there is a really short list of passenger EVs that can go 200 miles or more, far less if you exclude China-only brands.

 

[Red Sage]

This is how VW is saying they can release 30 electrified models in five years. This is how BMW can say the 330i is an electric anything with its 14-mile range. The simple fact is that there is a really short list of passenger EVs that can go 200 miles or more, far less if you exclude China-only brands.

Yeah. Ford at least uses the word 'electrified' when referring to their upcoming lineup to arrive by 2020. And upon inspection, the BYD E6 is actually offered for fleet sales in the US. But its EPA rated range falls far short of the supposed 250+ miles the manufacturer claims. And definitely well below 200 miles as well.

 

[Takumi]

from GM Chevy Volt

That is a very narrow view of what the definition of your "experience" is defined. To me that's very fundamentalists way of casting greater proportion on how an item is used. When the "hybrid experience" as defined as when the ICE heater (used physically) or range anxiety extinguisher is actually (used psychologically) utilized less than 10% of the time, I find it difficult to call that a defining experience for Volt. Hauling ICE hardware that are useless most of the time also doesn't make it a electric biased hybrid experience IMHO.
Just for the sake of hypothetical psychological exercise, supposedly I find viewing goldfishes in aquarium empowers me to drive. I put a fixed fish tank into a model X and tap the power to reveal the tank when I hit the go paddle. Does that make the Model X somehow a "hybrid experience" with the weight of those fish tank that I am hauling change the handling dynamic too? (Okay, that's not directly comparable you can substitute some insanely heavy hamster wheel to somehow power the Model X under a very specific set of circumstances that happens around 1% of total driving time instead).

When you do this, you have transformed the Model X into a hybrid. Hybrids have a permanent baggage if you decide to use only part of it's drivetrain.

Take a car with three different drivetrains:

Volt - ICE only (hypothetical)
Volt - Hybrid (current setup)
Volt - Pure Battery Electric/EV (hypothetical)

Load those three up with the same cargo, let's say fish tank, and you'll find that each one drives differently. It may be similar but they will drive differently. It's inherent within the design. Each have their advantage/disadvantage.

ICE = price advantage (for now)
Hybrid = fuel economy vs. ICE, range vs. Battery
Battery = NVH, local air quality

There's more, but I think you get the idea.

If you really want to feel the difference in experience, try it with a motorcycle with differing drivetrains. As an example:

Having said that, the gyroscopic action of the spinning engine (and wheels to some degree) does resist tilting the motorcycle. You can use this effect to help you stay balanced when moving very slowly on a motorcycle, like when you are maneuvering tight turns in a parking lot or doing tight U-turns. You hold the engine at a low/medium RPM, slip the clutch, and drag the rear brake. The extra stability is very noticable. But you don't need to do that in normal riding.

Reference Motor bike engines acting as a gyroscope keeping the bike upright

Let's make it really simple to understand:

Electric (EV) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ICE

Once you move the mark one point from either end, it becomes a hybrid and that's where the manufacturers come up with different marketing names (E-REV, HSD, etc...)

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I think the Ford Energi models disproves that. Despite being far worse cars than the Volt on paper (practically same starting MSRP, far less AER and practically no trunk space because of how battery pack was put in) they sold quite well.

... after Ford loaded them up with large incentives.

 

[JRP3]

Hauling ICE hardware that are useless most of the time also doesn't make it a electric biased hybrid experience IMHO.

The experience/use does not define the vehicle, it's design does. Using it on gasoline only does not make it an ICE, neither does using it on battery power only make it an EV. It's always a plugin hybrid, by design and construction.

 

[Drucifer]

... after Ford loaded them up with large incentives.

True, but have you seen the interior of the top of the line Fusion Energi. It's very nice. Nicer than my Model S (except for the touchscreen, of course)

 

[wws]

from GM Chevy Volt



When you do this, you have transformed the Model X into a hybrid. Hybrids have a permanent baggage if you decide to use only part of it's drivetrain.

Take a car with three different drivetrains:

Volt - ICE only (hypothetical)
Volt - Hybrid (current setup)
Volt - Pure Battery Electric/EV (hypothetical)

Load those three up with the same cargo, let's say fish tank, and you'll find that each one drives differently. It may be similar but they will drive differently. It's inherent within the design. Each have their advantage/disadvantage.

ICE = price advantage (for now)
Hybrid = fuel economy vs. ICE, range vs. Battery
Battery = NVH, local air quality

There's more, but I think you get the idea.

If you really want to feel the difference in experience, try it with a motorcycle with differing drivetrains. As an example:



Let's make it really simple to understand:

Electric (EV) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ICE

Once you move the mark one point from either end, it becomes a hybrid and that's where the manufacturers come up with different marketing names (E-REV, HSD, etc...)

Except that if you remove the ICE from the Volt, it will run just fine and at full functionality/performance - for the first 53+ miles. However if you alternatively remove the electric motors, the design won't work. The entire drive train must be replaced with something else. The i3 w/Rex is similar.

 

[Takumi]

Except that if you remove the ICE from the Volt, it will run just fine and at full functionality/performance - for the first 53+ miles. However if you alternatively remove the electric motors, the design won't work. The entire drive train must be replaced with something else. The i3 w/Rex is similar.

Okay, define for me what a series hybrid is, please.

NM, I'll leave it at you can call it by its marketing name while I'll call it by its scientific name.

 

[wws]

Okay, define for me what a series hybrid is, please.

NM, I'll leave it at you can call it by its marketing name while I'll call it by its scientific name.

The i3 Rex is clearly a series hybrid - when the Rex is running. The Gen 2 Volt is a parallel hybrid - again when the ICE is running. The Gen 1 Volt can go both ways depending on situation. However when running on pure electric, they all perform well and with full functionality.

Contrast to other competitors like the PiP, Energi, or E-tron. Take out the ICE and you are left with a very poorly performing "EV".

So I don't fault GM for trying to distinguish the car with a fancy name like "EREV".

 

[stopcrazypp]

... after Ford loaded them up with large incentives.

From my impression, GM loaded the Volt with just as many incentives (maybe more).

 

[Drucifer]

Except that if you remove the ICE from the Volt, it will run just fine and at full functionality/performance - for the first 53+ miles. However if you alternatively remove the electric motors, the design won't work. The entire drive train must be replaced with something else. The i3 w/Rex is similar.

from GM Chevy Volt



When you do this, you have transformed the Model X into a hybrid. Hybrids have a permanent baggage if you decide to use only part of it's drivetrain.

Take a car with three different drivetrains:

Volt - ICE only (hypothetical)
Volt - Hybrid (current setup)
Volt - Pure Battery Electric/EV (hypothetical)

Load those three up with the same cargo, let's say fish tank, and you'll find that each one drives differently. It may be similar but they will drive differently. It's inherent within the design. Each have their advantage/disadvantage.

ICE = price advantage (for now)
Hybrid = fuel economy vs. ICE, range vs. Battery
Battery = NVH, local air quality

There's more, but I think you get the idea.

If you really want to feel the difference in experience, try it with a motorcycle with differing drivetrains. As an example:



Let's make it really simple to understand:

Electric (EV) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ICE

Once you move the mark one point from either end, it becomes a hybrid and that's where the manufacturers come up with different marketing names (E-REV, HSD, etc...)

My Volt had 400 pounds of gasoline engine ("range extender") and accessories that I only used about 8% of my miles.

My Model S has 400 pounds of batteries ("way more than I need without taking a trip") that I only use about 8% of my miles.

Not seeing too much of a difference there, except the packaging on the Tesla is much more efficient.

 

[ChadS]

I see your point, but there is a difference. The extra batteries are not ONLY useful for their extra energy on a long trip. You can also use their extra power when you accelerate; and by cycling the larger pack less, longevity is greater. Having the larger pack size can also make Supercharging faster (though of course that depends on other factors as well).

 

[JRP3]

Except that if you remove the ICE from the Volt, it will run just fine and at full functionality/performance - for the first 53+ miles.

Doesn't the Volt ICE come on if it's cold enough?