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Pure BEV Dogma
- Thread starter bonnie
- Start date
Silly puns aside, I think we're missing a trick.
IMO cars like the Volt are an excellent rolling advertisement for BEVs. In these times of high gas prices they can train ICE drivers to deal with home recharging and to work within a limited electric range without range anxiety. If GM can also get the battery management side working well, then I can see many owners seriously considering a BEV as a future purchase.
Tesla needs to target Bluestar as the ideal companion to whatever PHEV, EVER, GEV, HEV etc etc that's out there.
All this worry about labels is uneccessary. It's the experience of electric drive that is going to hook people in.
IMO cars like the Volt are an excellent rolling advertisement for BEVs. In these times of high gas prices they can train ICE drivers to deal with home recharging and to work within a limited electric range without range anxiety. If GM can also get the battery management side working well, then I can see many owners seriously considering a BEV as a future purchase.
Tesla needs to target Bluestar as the ideal companion to whatever PHEV, EVER, GEV, HEV etc etc that's out there.
All this worry about labels is uneccessary. It's the experience of electric drive that is going to hook people in.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
PHEVs were always supposed to be stepping stones to BEVs. That's what I read in magazines way before the Tesla or the Volt was even on the drawing board (and back then there certainly wasn't as many new acryonyms for the same thing).
As I said before, I'm not really opposed to labels as long as it does not confuse people or gets used to damage BEVs (rather than helping). I don't think labels are completely unimportant either or marketing teams would not focus so much on them. You first have to get people to test drive a car and hopefully buy one and that's when labeling usually comes in for the marketers.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
In a rational world the merits of each particular vehicle would stand on their own. Unfortunately some very vocal groups have distorted reality and used misinformation to further their own agenda. That's why labels matter. For example claiming that the Volt is an EV that runs out of charge in a tunnel after less than 20 miles is a misuse of the term EV and does a disservice to both EV's and the Volt.
I agree. Maybe something like Advanced Plug-in Hybrid X (where X is the number of electric miles). I can see both sides but it is annoying watching those news 'reviews' where they pretend to run out of charge after 20 miles and then talk about the 10 hour charge time. No matter what you call it though if they're determined to distort the truth, things like facts won't get in their way.
My sentiments Exactly, and very well stated.
GSP
PS. In my own personal experience, this is working exactly to the plan.
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OK... but *why doesn't it*?
That's $104K - $112K using a $1.60 to the pound exchange rate, which is a fair recent average.
As opposed to $77,400 + tax in the US. (Without tax credit.)
So what's inflating the UK costs by *34%* or more? Transportation? Taxes? Foreign exchange fees? Homologation for a small market? How can all that add up to 34%?
Therefore, price-gouging?
It's obviously nothing to do with the actual car, which costs the same amount to make!
Edit: note that for the price you're expecting for the Model S 300 mile base model, I can get the fully loaded Signature model. Including tax. I can't imagine why Tesla would price-gouge the entire UK to that extent; it seems like it would be a bad business decision which would reduce volume of sales substantially. But Tesla has been developing a bit of a price-gouging reputation, so maybe they will
It's not the UK, it's Europe generally. There are a lot of reasons why costs are higher - I don't believe it's gouging. Exchange rate variability is one reason. If that changes the wrong way, in some way the car does cost more to make.
Well, OK, but if it's exchange rate variability, that should mean that European-manufactured cars would be cheaper in Europe than in the US, in currency-converted terms. And that doesn't seem to be consistently true. (Further, exchange rates can be hedged, and there hasn't been a really major long-term devaluation of the pound in 10 years.)
But anyway, if it's due to location of manufacture and location of parts sourcing, it still means that in the next decade or so, someone should be able to supply a car in Europe where the price really is similar to the price in the US. (Unless production costs are just a lot higher in Europe... but then wages would be higher too, and the amount people would be willing to pay for cars would be higher, and....)
So I'm still trying to figure out what would account for such a large premium. Are there very large taxes on cars?
Adm
Active Member
Tesla has sold the Roadster at € 84000,= ex VAT in Europe which is about the price of the Roadster in the USA in $ at the current exchange rate. I hope that Tesla make that a tradition.
US prices do not include sales tax. My state takes 7%. Funny, the state goverment doesn't seem to be any better than when they collected 2%.
If you trade in your old car at the dealership, then you only pay sales tax on the difference. This is a big help if you trade cars frequently.
I believe Europe requires the advertized price to include VAT, which is pretty hefty. That way consumers are not constantly reminded how expensive their governments are.
GSP
If you trade in your old car at the dealership, then you only pay sales tax on the difference. This is a big help if you trade cars frequently.
I believe Europe requires the advertized price to include VAT, which is pretty hefty. That way consumers are not constantly reminded how expensive their governments are.
GSP
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Norbert
TSLA will win
Personally I think to some degree it does make sense to have a 50 kW (or 44kW) network for cars like the Leaf and Zoe with a ~100 mile range, but more to extend the range with 1 or perhaps 2 recharges, and perhaps for *rare* longer trips. However this is surely a limited market, though sufficiently large by itself.
Larger range, faster charging (90 kW), a network extending also beyond the most popular routes, and lower relative price, will each increase the number of people able to use EVs, and interested to buy them.
If you want, you can add "education about real needs" as one other factor. Or "education about climate science". "peak oil". "solar power". "trade deficit". As long as it doesn't come at the cost of support for the other factors.
A larger range gives more independence, while a better network is not only necessary for longer trips, but also costs less per car (above a certain volume).
Finding good combinations of these features is the challenge for EV companies when making future product choices, especially if they need (or want) to make profit. I think Tesla does a good job at that, together with its power train business. The Model S should give Tesla enough breathing space to time future developments in sync with any necessary battery (price-) development. However Tesla can't do the same as Nissan or GM, and produce products that don't make profit. Nevertheless, I believe (now as much as ever) that Tesla is more important for a timely EV future than those products currently trying to serve the mass-market. "Electric miles driven" is not yet my benchmark, not for many years. Showing the real world feasibility of a complete solution, as profitable products, with happy owners, is my current benchmark.
Larger range, faster charging (90 kW), a network extending also beyond the most popular routes, and lower relative price, will each increase the number of people able to use EVs, and interested to buy them.
If you want, you can add "education about real needs" as one other factor. Or "education about climate science". "peak oil". "solar power". "trade deficit". As long as it doesn't come at the cost of support for the other factors.
A larger range gives more independence, while a better network is not only necessary for longer trips, but also costs less per car (above a certain volume).
Finding good combinations of these features is the challenge for EV companies when making future product choices, especially if they need (or want) to make profit. I think Tesla does a good job at that, together with its power train business. The Model S should give Tesla enough breathing space to time future developments in sync with any necessary battery (price-) development. However Tesla can't do the same as Nissan or GM, and produce products that don't make profit. Nevertheless, I believe (now as much as ever) that Tesla is more important for a timely EV future than those products currently trying to serve the mass-market. "Electric miles driven" is not yet my benchmark, not for many years. Showing the real world feasibility of a complete solution, as profitable products, with happy owners, is my current benchmark.
Therein lies the problem...
Showing feasibility is great, and I've done it many a time as you know, but with the current state of batteries and infrastructure (the latter I believe the network operators are making a complete hash of) IMHO the PHEV is the best option for the mass market for a while yet. Great if you can afford a Model S but >95% can't or won't.
I'd rather 100% of drivers drive electric 90% of the time than 10% of drivers 100% of the time*. If you advocate everyone holding out for pure BEVs (the pure BEV dogma) then all you're really doing is promoting another decade of gas use.
It's been said before, but;
*yes this is a finger in the air, but probably not far off.
About fast charge networks, I think the reason they were not widely deployed (not at all in some parts of Europe) is the price. If a fast charge point costs around EUR 10 000 (as it's the case with Chademo), don't expect to see them every few kms...
Fast DC charging is technically interesting with the leaf as the high capacity charger is offboard (car becomes cheaper, lighter and has less electronic...). In Europe, the upcoming Renault Zoe car will change 2 things :
- The plug is now Type 2 (VDE-AR-E 2623-2-2) which is becoming the de-facto standard in Europe; this plug supports single & 3 phases charging up to 44KWh and you don't need any electronic on the charge point side (beside a optional meter) : It's pretty cheap to set up, if you have 3 phases onsite (which many businesses have in France) - around 200 EUR per charge point...
- Renault uses the AC motor wiring to convert 3 phases AC to DC, which means you don't need to have an extra onboard high capacity charger which would be expensive and heavy
I'm pretty sure that soon every european cars will come with this as standard and obsolete any previous fast charge standard (chademo...) charge points.
I don't know what Tesla is planning to do with the model S in Europe but I hope they're not forgeting 3 phases charging (at least as an upgrade or option...) because I'm pretty sure noone is going to setup an expensive specific fast charge network around here...
Concerning the pure BEV Dogma
, until recently I thought the only pure EV with range extender was the volt/ampera but I noticed that it's actually a hybrid, the gas engine is being used directly when going over 110km/h. Personally, I think hybrid cars are way too complicated, they make me think of dual DVD/VHS decks which were sold so people would not be scared (few were actually used to play VHS...). I'm getting an electric car because it's cheap to run, maintain and has long life. Fast charging will do the trick for the few times I'll need it and if I need to drive much further than 200km, I'll get my cheap, efficient diesel car that costs less to run than the prius or volt to drive/maintain (I'm pretty sure it'll stay in the garage most of the time).
Personally, I think this is the price of gas that will bring more people to EVs, we're close to $9 a gallon in here!
Fast DC charging is technically interesting with the leaf as the high capacity charger is offboard (car becomes cheaper, lighter and has less electronic...). In Europe, the upcoming Renault Zoe car will change 2 things :
- The plug is now Type 2 (VDE-AR-E 2623-2-2) which is becoming the de-facto standard in Europe; this plug supports single & 3 phases charging up to 44KWh and you don't need any electronic on the charge point side (beside a optional meter) : It's pretty cheap to set up, if you have 3 phases onsite (which many businesses have in France) - around 200 EUR per charge point...
- Renault uses the AC motor wiring to convert 3 phases AC to DC, which means you don't need to have an extra onboard high capacity charger which would be expensive and heavy
I'm pretty sure that soon every european cars will come with this as standard and obsolete any previous fast charge standard (chademo...) charge points.
I don't know what Tesla is planning to do with the model S in Europe but I hope they're not forgeting 3 phases charging (at least as an upgrade or option...) because I'm pretty sure noone is going to setup an expensive specific fast charge network around here...
Concerning the pure BEV Dogma
, until recently I thought the only pure EV with range extender was the volt/ampera but I noticed that it's actually a hybrid, the gas engine is being used directly when going over 110km/h. Personally, I think hybrid cars are way too complicated, they make me think of dual DVD/VHS decks which were sold so people would not be scared (few were actually used to play VHS...). I'm getting an electric car because it's cheap to run, maintain and has long life. Fast charging will do the trick for the few times I'll need it and if I need to drive much further than 200km, I'll get my cheap, efficient diesel car that costs less to run than the prius or volt to drive/maintain (I'm pretty sure it'll stay in the garage most of the time).Personally, I think this is the price of gas that will bring more people to EVs, we're close to $9 a gallon in here!
Norbert
TSLA will win
Actually the post was meant to go into a different thread....here it is a bit out of context, but otherwise fits as well. So I'll take the liberty to cross post exceptionally, as I usually don't, if you don't mind. Writing a response here...
Norbert
TSLA will win
First of all:
Sure, someone who can't or won't buy a Leaf or Zoe or Model S or other pure EV, should buy a PHEV. But who opposes that? Who are you arguing with?
The Roadster is not a "complete solution". No fast charging allowing convenient trips. While I welcomed your Roadster trips as showing that EVs aren't as bad as the BBC was trying to make them look, I don't consider them close to how John Doe would travel. The Model S is much closer. Personally I think using the Model S to make a trip SF to LA will be a pleasure. With the Roadster, only if there was the place and time to spend many hours half way. Even if that were the case, unlikely I'd want to spend the same amount of time on the way back. (Though if someone gave me a Roadster, I'd be happy to try it out. At least once.)
The Volt is priced above mass-market, and didn't sell more than the Leaf + other pure EVs. Perhaps GM would have been able to sell a similar number of pure EVs had they invested the same efforts into building an EV with a larger range than the Leaf, for the price of the Volt. Model S may sell 15,000 in the first 12 months. Not clear yet how many Volts will be sold this year (its second year), even below cost.
The Leaf is priced closer to mass-market, and I wouldn't know why you think the Volt is a better product. Of course, some (including you) wouldn't be able or willing to live with the Leaf's range, and I have no problem at all if these buy a Volt or Ampera. But then, you said yourself a Leaf with a larger range corresponding to ~$7k (about the difference) might have done it for you.
I kind of agree with the logic, except I don't think it will happen this way. 100% driving 90% electric with a PHEV is far from what actually happens. BTW, I think the average for Volt's "electric of the time" is around 70%, not 90%. And at the current volume, Volt and Leaf don't make much of difference at the national level, even if you add them up.
The single biggest factor that needs to change is the perception that electric cars are not a complete solution, not the future. Changing that, even if it were the Volt/Ampera changing it, that is what counts for me. I haven't said it won't be the Volt. Though I admit I was pretty much thinking it. I think it will be done by Model S followed by Bluestar (which we recently heard Tesla started working on).
For almost any o f my trips beyond city limits, around here, the Volt would be using gasoline.
Sure, someone who can't or won't buy a Leaf or Zoe or Model S or other pure EV, should buy a PHEV. But who opposes that? Who are you arguing with?
The Roadster is not a "complete solution". No fast charging allowing convenient trips. While I welcomed your Roadster trips as showing that EVs aren't as bad as the BBC was trying to make them look, I don't consider them close to how John Doe would travel. The Model S is much closer. Personally I think using the Model S to make a trip SF to LA will be a pleasure. With the Roadster, only if there was the place and time to spend many hours half way. Even if that were the case, unlikely I'd want to spend the same amount of time on the way back. (Though if someone gave me a Roadster, I'd be happy to try it out. At least once.)
The Volt is priced above mass-market, and didn't sell more than the Leaf + other pure EVs. Perhaps GM would have been able to sell a similar number of pure EVs had they invested the same efforts into building an EV with a larger range than the Leaf, for the price of the Volt. Model S may sell 15,000 in the first 12 months. Not clear yet how many Volts will be sold this year (its second year), even below cost.
The Leaf is priced closer to mass-market, and I wouldn't know why you think the Volt is a better product. Of course, some (including you) wouldn't be able or willing to live with the Leaf's range, and I have no problem at all if these buy a Volt or Ampera. But then, you said yourself a Leaf with a larger range corresponding to ~$7k (about the difference) might have done it for you.
I kind of agree with the logic, except I don't think it will happen this way. 100% driving 90% electric with a PHEV is far from what actually happens. BTW, I think the average for Volt's "electric of the time" is around 70%, not 90%. And at the current volume, Volt and Leaf don't make much of difference at the national level, even if you add them up.
The single biggest factor that needs to change is the perception that electric cars are not a complete solution, not the future. Changing that, even if it were the Volt/Ampera changing it, that is what counts for me. I haven't said it won't be the Volt. Though I admit I was pretty much thinking it. I think it will be done by Model S followed by Bluestar (which we recently heard Tesla started working on).
For almost any o f my trips beyond city limits, around here, the Volt would be using gasoline.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
If a car has an ICE in it as well as an electric motor then it's a hybrid. You can't have a "pure" EV if there is an ICE in it. If the ICE happens to only be a generator then it's called a series hybrid, (Fisker Karma), if the ICE also drives the wheels then it's a parallel hybrid, or in the case of the Volt a series/parallel hybrid. As you say they are all more complicated than a pure EV, which is one reason I think it's important not to confuse the issue with improper terminology. Each technology has it's place.Concerning the pure BEV Dogma
Is there anything wrong with pushing those who are considering a plug-in hybrid to consider if they can 'get by' with a car that has a bigger battery but no gas engine?
Some premise of this thread seems to suggest that BEV/ZEV purists should think it an equivalent step forward when someone buys anything that can plug-in.
Some people tend to think that whatever works for them is good and anything else is lesser. For instance, Volt buyers who mock the limited EV mode range of a plug-in Prius or its' limited top speed in EV mode.
Some of the 'dogma' comes from the thought that progress not only involves finding vehicles that can service your existing routine more efficiently, but also changes can be made to reduce total miles driven. The goal is to reduce consumption & pollution, right?
Having an EV with no range extender 'forces your hand' and the inconvenience of long trips makes one have to think harder if it is really worth it or not.
Someone started using the term 'liquid fast charge' (for cars like Volt on a long trip) which I find troubling as it sounds like someone bought into the marketing talk that they are still 'electric miles' since an electric motor still drove the wheels (after being powered by the range extender engine.)
I am not saying any of this sort of stuff in Volt forums. I am glad for Volt buyers that picked a Volt instead of a non plug-in vehicle, but disappointed for those that could have made do with a 100% electric but 'wimped out' due to not wanting to live with any inconvenience. I feel it is appropriate to keep this thought going as Tesla is committed to gas-less vehicles, and this is a Tesla forum.
Some premise of this thread seems to suggest that BEV/ZEV purists should think it an equivalent step forward when someone buys anything that can plug-in.
Some people tend to think that whatever works for them is good and anything else is lesser. For instance, Volt buyers who mock the limited EV mode range of a plug-in Prius or its' limited top speed in EV mode.
Some of the 'dogma' comes from the thought that progress not only involves finding vehicles that can service your existing routine more efficiently, but also changes can be made to reduce total miles driven. The goal is to reduce consumption & pollution, right?
Having an EV with no range extender 'forces your hand' and the inconvenience of long trips makes one have to think harder if it is really worth it or not.
Someone started using the term 'liquid fast charge' (for cars like Volt on a long trip) which I find troubling as it sounds like someone bought into the marketing talk that they are still 'electric miles' since an electric motor still drove the wheels (after being powered by the range extender engine.)
I am not saying any of this sort of stuff in Volt forums. I am glad for Volt buyers that picked a Volt instead of a non plug-in vehicle, but disappointed for those that could have made do with a 100% electric but 'wimped out' due to not wanting to live with any inconvenience. I feel it is appropriate to keep this thought going as Tesla is committed to gas-less vehicles, and this is a Tesla forum.
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