Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

[AAKEE]

Ah ok…could also be up here in Toronto we are still at 8-12c outside and it’s basing it on avg wh/km used in last few months

Just didn’t expect this while nursing it lol.

Remember, 80% is among the worst SOC when it comes to calendar aging.

Daily charging to 80% is not nursing or babysitting the battery.

You do mot need to change anything, except knowing that 80% will eat a piece of the battery.

Nursing the battery would be keeping it at low SOC( the lower the better). Nursing the battery is not needed but it is possible to do and it would reduce the degradation quite much.

 

[Destiny1701]

Remember, 80% is among the worst SOC when it comes to calendar aging.

Daily charging to 80% is not nursing or babysitting the battery.

You do mot need to change anything, except knowing that 80% will eat a piece of the battery.

Nursing the battery would be keeping it at low SOC( the lower the better). Nursing the battery is not needed but it is possible to do and it would reduce the degradation quite much.

Not following the logic.
What am I to charge to daily to reduce this?
60? 70?

 

[AAKEE]

Not following the logic.
What am I to charge to daily to reduce this?
60? 70?

Lower SOC is better, with a steep change at 55-60%.

The pic show how much capacity the battery loose from different state of charges(SOC) and different temperatures.

The battery will probably survive the car anyway.

If you would like to reduce the degradation anyway, set the charging to be done before you use the car.
Calendar aging is affected by [Time x SOC x Temperature]. Reducing the time at high SOC is good.
I leave 06:30 and set the charging to commence at 03:30. The car usually sit during the night with 20-35% SOC.
I charge with 11kW so charging is finished 0500 to 0600 depending on the SOC during the night. I charge to 55%.

Also, set the charging goal not higher than you need. Its preferable to get below 60% if possible. But charging *just in time* as described above already reduce the calendar aging.

I have no appearent degradation, 80.5kWh capacity according to the battery management system which is the same as most have with this pack new. In reality I should have lost about 2.5% during my one year and three months / 37.000 km (23.000 miles). My BMS is most probably slightly off.
I live in a cold climate which helps with keeping the degradation low.

 

[Moonest]

Hi everyone, I was hoping that someone can help me with this question. I'm trying to figure out what battery my M3 SR+ has. I took delivery of this car about 6 months ago, so around the time when Tesla was starting to roll out the LFP battery in the US. I looked in the user manual, but it is kind of confusing for me...maybe my English interpretation is not that great. According to the manual:

Some vehicles are equipped with a Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) Battery. To determine if your vehicle has a LFP Battery, open the charging screen on your touchscreen and then touch Set Limit, or open the charging screen in your mobile app and drag the slider.

• If the image of the Battery displays "50%" and "100%" then your vehicle is equipped with a LFP Battery.
• If the image of the Battery displays "Daily" and "Trip" then your vehicle is NOT equipped with a LFP Battery. Disregard this section.

As you can tell in the images, the battery displays Daily and Trip, BUT in the mobile app, it displays as % with a max range of 235 when charged to 100%.

Also, does the max range seem low for anyone else? This car has never been charged to100% before. I keep the limit to 90% and only charge it when it gets down to 20-30% (every 3-4 days). I've only used the Tesla supercharger 5x max. Most of the charging is done by ChargePoint at my work.

 

[ucmndd]

Based on the first picture you definitely have a NCA battery, not LFP.

I keep the limit to 90% and only charge it when it gets down to 20-30% (every 3-4 days).

If preserving range is your goal, you should read the manual and change your charging habits.

 

[Tam]

As you can tell in the images, the battery displays Daily and Trip,

Yours is no LFP. It's traditional NCA (Nickel Cobalt Aluminium) as described in the manual.

BUT in the mobile app, it displays as % with a max range of 235 when charged to 100%.

To determine LFP or NCA, you go to your car's screen, and not your phone app.

Also, does the max range seem low for anyone else?

It's an estimate. To get the real one, you actually have to charge it to 100%.

Anyhow, Tesla won't fix any degradation when you car is still achieving 70% capacity (100% EPA rated at 253 miles, 70% guarantee=177.1 miles)

...only charge it when it gets down to 20-30% (every 3-4 days)...

That is not following the manual instructions. It says:

"There is no advantage to waiting until the Battery’s level is low before charging. In fact, the Battery performs best when charged regularly."

1) abstaining from charging in 3-4 days is contradictory to "charged regularly"
2) Waiting to get down to a low battery is contradictory to "advantage".

---
My recommendation is not to worry about degradation until it can only hold a 100% full charge below the EPA rated 70% or 177.1 miles.

Continue to set your charge at 90% and plugin as much as possible. Don't wait to charge unless there's a reason such as there's no charger at the office, or you want to wait for the cheaper electric rate at 9 PM...

Don't worry. Just enjoy your car!

 

[Moonest]

Thank you for the tips. I must've misunderstood the charging thing. The reason is that I do not have access to charge at home, so my main access to charging is done at work. I was rereading the manual again and they said to keep it plugin. I will charge this on a daily basis from now on, but I still can not leave my car plugin at work when it reached the charge limit due to the parking fee.

 

[Tam]

Thank you for the tips.

You are welcome!

I must've misunderstood the charging thing.

That happens. So it's good to have support for clarifications.

The reason is that I do not have access to charge at home...

The goal is to plugin as much as possible but it's not possible as cited in your case. But if there are no reasons, no obstacles then we should do what the manual says.

...so my main access to charging is done at work... I was rereading the manual again and they said to keep it plugin. I will charge this on a daily basis from now on, but I still can not leave my car plugin at work when it reached the charge limit due to the parking fee.

Sounds fair and reasonable. It's a good plan.

 

[jjrandorin]

Hi everyone, I was hoping that someone can help me with this question. I'm trying to figure out what battery my M3 SR+ has. I took delivery of this car about 6 months ago, so around the time when Tesla was starting to roll out the LFP battery in the US. I looked in the user manual, but it is kind of confusing for me...maybe my English interpretation is not that great. According to the manual:

Some vehicles are equipped with a Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) Battery. To determine if your vehicle has a LFP Battery, open the charging screen on your touchscreen and then touch Set Limit, or open the charging screen in your mobile app and drag the slider.

• If the image of the Battery displays "50%" and "100%" then your vehicle is equipped with a LFP Battery.
• If the image of the Battery displays "Daily" and "Trip" then your vehicle is NOT equipped with a LFP Battery. Disregard this section.

As you can tell in the images, the battery displays Daily and Trip, BUT in the mobile app, it displays as % with a max range of 235 when charged to 100%.

Also, does the max range seem low for anyone else? This car has never been charged to100% before. I keep the limit to 90% and only charge it when it gets down to 20-30% (every 3-4 days). I've only used the Tesla supercharger 5x max. Most of the charging is done by ChargePoint at my work.

One more confirmation (although this isnt needed as both @Tam and @ucmndd are very knowledgeable) that, as far as determining what type of battery you have, whats on the screen in the car is what those instructions point to. What is in the tesla app doesnt matter (as far as determining which battery).

As far as charging, there is no benefit at all to "running it down to charge it back up". If thats what you need to do because of your circumstances, that "is what it is" but its not going to specifically help anything.

Question. Do you use sentry mode all the time?

 

[Moonest]

Question. Do you use sentry mode all the time?

I have it off for work and at home, which is where my car is at 90% of the time. I don't really go out much these days but it is on when every I for example visit my mom or go grocery shopping. But those things only last for 1-2hrs at a time.

 

[jjrandorin]

I have it off for work and at home, which is where my car is at 90% of the time. I don't really go out much these days but it is on when every I for example visit my mom or go grocery shopping. But those things only last for 1-2hrs at a time.

I was asking because sentry mode doesnt let the car sleep, so it uses more energy (and people without home charging are the ones who also typically want to run sentry mode 24 X 7).

Your range result does look a little on the high side (as far as the car reporting degradation) but I dont know if that is real degradation or just BMS balancing. You can take a look at the first post in the "rebalancing" thread stickied here and try that if you want, but you can also just drive and not pay too much attention to it, too

How I Recovered Half of my Battery's Lost Capacity

Like many others, I have been concerned with loss of 100% indicated battery range on one of my Model 3s. My P3D (build date 9/13/2018, delivery date 10/8/2018) had gotten down to 270.3 miles at 100% charge on January 20, 2020, at about 30,700 miles, which is a loss of 40.8 miles since the car...

teslamotorsclub.com

Tesla wont do anything (nothing, zip, nada, insert any other alternate meaning for "nothing" you can think of), unless and until battery degradation reaches 70% of the cars beginning range. Engaging tesla before that is a waste of your time, if you are considering that. You didnt say that, but thats where people generally go ("is there something wrong with my car? Should I contact Tesla?") so I figured I would say it up front.

If it were me, I would just plug in every day at work (instead of running it down to 20-30%) and just keep driving.

 

[Moonest]

I was asking because sentry mode doesnt let the car sleep, so it uses more energy (and people without home charging are the ones who also typically want to run sentry mode 24 X 7).

Your range result does look a little on the high side (as far as the car reporting degradation) but I dont know if that is real degradation or just BMS balancing. You can take a look at the first post in the "rebalancing" thread stickied here and try that if you want, but you can also just drive and not pay too much attention to it, too

How I Recovered Half of my Battery's Lost Capacity

Like many others, I have been concerned with loss of 100% indicated battery range on one of my Model 3s. My P3D (build date 9/13/2018, delivery date 10/8/2018) had gotten down to 270.3 miles at 100% charge on January 20, 2020, at about 30,700 miles, which is a loss of 40.8 miles since the car...

teslamotorsclub.com

Tesla wont do anything (nothing, zip, nada, insert any other alternate meaning for "nothing" you can think of), unless and until battery degradation reaches 70% of the cars beginning range. Engaging tesla before that is a waste of your time, if you are considering that. You didnt say that, but thats where people generally go ("is there something wrong with my car? Should I contact Tesla?") so I figured I would say it up front.

If it were me, I would just plug in every day at work (instead of running it down to 20-30%) and just keep driving.

Thank you for all the help. TBH, I was thinking of contacting Tesla CS, but as @Tam mentioned, 70% is still in the range of "good" according to the Tesla warranty and I have been reading a lot of people (including you) saying that Tesla CS will not do anything unless it drops below 70% capacity. To be honest, this is the first time I notice the mileage thing. The first thing I did when I took delivery of the car was changing the display from miles to %. I will charge the car daily at work and see if anything changes.

 

[atxm3man]

Hi
I have a M3 LR Performance (20" wheels). I drive spiritedly. I have 42k miles on the car. I live in Texas where it's quiet warm. When I bought the car new , the 100% capacity was 310 miles. When I push the charging indicator to 100%, it shows my batt capacity is 280 miles , which is a 10% degradation.

Is this normal - Losing 10% in 42k miles ?

Thx

 

[LoudMusic]

Yes.

Check Out This Official Tesla Model S/X Battery Capacity Degradation Chart

Battery capacity degradation over time or distance traveled is one of the several main concerns in terms of electric cars. Let's see Tesla's results.

insideevs.com

 

[atxm3man]

Any actual M3 LR owners - What are you getting at 70%-90%-100% ?

 

[jjrandorin]

Any actual M3 LR owners - What are you getting at 70%-90%-100% ?

You can search through this thread I moved your post into to find out. In the model 3 subforum all range question / discussions go into this thread, which is why this was moved here. To answer your other question, yes 10% is very normal. For more than that, you can read through this thread.

 

[AAKEE]

Thank you for all the help. TBH, I was thinking of contacting Tesla CS, but as @Tam mentioned, 70% is still in the range of "good" according to the Tesla warranty and I have been reading a lot of people (including you) saying that Tesla CS will not do anything unless it drops below 70% capacity. To be honest, this is the first time I notice the mileage thing. The first thing I did when I took delivery of the car was changing the display from miles to %. I will charge the car daily at work and see if anything changes.

Calendar aging reduces with the square root of time. After 5-6years the annual degradation is low.
The battery will probably survive the car anyway but you can affect the amount of degradation( as in keeping the range better).
If you still like to reduce the degradation:

If you drive that little you could consider charging to a lower SOC.
80-90% is actually causing the most calendar aging.

50-60% would be better( the calendar aging cuts in half by keeping it below 60%.)
I use 55%.
As you do not have any own charging possibility it will not be possible to charge “just in time”. This means that you will have much higher average SOC which increases the calendar aging.
If you dont need high SOC I would recommend you to not charge daily above 60%. 50-55% would be good as you then stay on the good side of the calendar aging step(located between 55-60%).

The size of the cycles affect the cyclic aging. Smaller = better.

The SOC affect the cyclic aging. The lower SOC the better. One research report found that cycling aging was only about 1/4-1/5 when NCA batteries was cycled around 30% SOC instead of 70%.

Calendar aging cause the most degradation for the most people. About 5-6% the first year is normal.
Cyclic aging will be below 1% for most people.
Keeping the SOC high and use the car very little will case the calendar aging to be 10x the cyclic aging.

To sum up:
- The lower SOC the better.
- The smaller cycles, the better.

I follow all the tip above, but not so hard it cause problems for me(like having to low SOC on a nice saturday etc). I have very little degradation. The BMS value “Nominal full pack” is about the same as when the car was new, its a ‘21 M3P with 38K km / 23K miles, 1 year and three months since delivery. I live in a cold climate, which helps but my charging habits is the thing doing the big difference.

 

[AAKEE]

Hi
I have a M3 LR Performance (20" wheels). I drive spiritedly. I have 42k miles on the car. I live in Texas where it's quiet warm. When I bought the car new , the 100% capacity was 310 miles. When I push the charging indicator to 100%, it shows my batt capacity is 280 miles , which is a 10% degradation.

Is this normal - Losing 10% in 42k miles ?

Thx

First of all, we are not talking about the range shown in the mobile app?
- The mobile app do not show the correct range except in exception.
You need to check the range in the car, preferably by charging to 100%.

When was the delivery of the car?
I ask because it is the time that causes most degradation, not the miles.

What’s your charging habits?
You live in Texas, a hot climate.

Calendar aging is the dominant degratation source and hot climate increase this further.
If you keep the car at 80-90% SOC in a warm climate you should expect the degradation to be in the ball park of 7-8% the first year, maybe more if its a really hot climate with the car out in the sun.

Your car did probably have a battery capacity of around 77.8kWh when new.
I think that the range did not reduce until the capacity is down to 76kWh.

The capacity in the battery according to the current range (your 280mil) is about 68.5kWh.
That points to a loss of around 12%.

If you had 7% calendar aging after the first year, you would have reached 12% after three years. ( 7 x square root of 3)
-You would probably be at about 14% loss after 4 years and 19-20% after 8 years.
This is normal, it is the nature of the battery technology we have today.

The annual cyclic aging is probably less than 1%, (I assume 42K mi during 3 years).

Look at my post above for tips about reducing the degradation, if you dont like what you see today. Otherwise, just accept the fact that batteries age like we do.

 

[Alicehaydawn47]

You’re from Norway…

Theres a range of different batteries for the SR+
Do you know if you have the LFP battery or not? (The charge setting in the car, does it say up to 90% for daily and above 90% for trips?)

First of all, the mobile app do not show correct range readings all the time. Very often it shows to low range.
You need to check this up in the car.

If it is a car with a LFP battery, you should chsrge full once a week to help the bsttery management computer to keep the track pf the battery capacity.
The car will never show the WLTP range value on the screen at the battery symbol.
Tesla use the US EPA-rating as the base for the range.

There was one version of the 2021 SR+ with a WLTP of 448km, but that car will not show 448km on the screen. This car did show around 420km when new( because tesla show the EPA range and not WLTP).

If you keep the car at 80% SOC for the most of the time, the battery most probable will loose about 4-5% during the first year.

So how do I check this up in the car? Btw It’s the 2021 SR+ with a WLTP of 448, and yes it used to show around 420/430 while at 100%. I charged it to a 100% this night and now it shows 368km as full

 

[Bouba]

Yes.

Check Out This Official Tesla Model S/X Battery Capacity Degradation Chart

Battery capacity degradation over time or distance traveled is one of the several main concerns in terms of electric cars. Let's see Tesla's results.

insideevs.com

Your article is very interesting...the degradation chart shows that a million mile battery is not just a pipe dream but was actually delivered ten years ago...unless there is some sudden drop off or failure after 10 years / 200,000 miles