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Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

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Thanks for the link. I watched the entire video and there was no mention of voltages or SoC beyond which degradation occurs. Where did you get the 3.92V / 63% SoC from?
Ok, scanned thru quickly; basically, I would read from this post onward:
Battery Degradation Scientifically Explained

which links to the paper about cathode cracking, and how staying below 60% SOC, will allow you to avoid cathode cracking that goes all the way from outer to inner, with pictures.

All of the posts afterward are good, then I would also look at this comment:
Battery Degradation Scientifically Explained
That post gets the optimal voltage charge limit to be 3.92V to eliminate all voltage-related stresses, from a Maxim Integrated blog, and believes that voltage is ~60% SOC.

And any post by EV-Tech Exp from the beginning of the thread is excellent. I don't really remember where I got 63% SOC from. Must have been a different thread.

Maybe I just came up with it myself. When you read some of these posts, you get that for every 70mV reduction is 10%, so if 4.1V is 90%, then 3.92V is around 64%, or something like that.
 
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Ok, scanned thru quickly; basically, I would read from this post onward:
Battery Degradation Scientifically Explained

which links to the paper about cathode cracking, and how staying below 60% SOC, will allow you to avoid cathode cracking that goes all the way from outer to inner, with pictures.

All of the posts afterward are good, then I would also look at this comment:
Battery Degradation Scientifically Explained
That post gets the optimal voltage charge limit to be 3.92V to eliminate all voltage-related stresses, from a Maxim Integrated blog, and believes that voltage is ~60% SOC.

And any post by EV-Tech Exp from the beginning of the thread is excellent. I don't really remember where I got 63% SOC from. Must have been a different thread.

Maybe I just came up with it myself. When you read some of these posts, you get that for every 70mV reduction is 10%, so if 4.1V is 90%, then 3.92V is around 64%, or something like that.
Thanks for the details! I think you're right that 3.92V is about 64%.
Based on my own data from SMT, here's a graph of my car's cell voltage versus SoC:

Cell Voltage vs SoC.png
 
completely irrelevant. we are not talking about how efficcient you drive your 3 or how efficient your AWD 3 is compared a 20" 3 or other EVs.
we are purely talking about battery degradation which gets measured in % or kwh or rated km.

I was responding to your own post.

In that post *you* mentioned that the new SR+ show almost as good range with 100% SoC as your LR.

That has nothing to do with battery degradation, and my response was that the SR+ is even more enthusiastically optimistic about range than the earlier model (already pretty optimistic)

So please at least try to remember the topic you yourself started just a day ago before flaming others.
 
Ok, scanned thru quickly; basically, I would read from this post onward:
Battery Degradation Scientifically Explained

which links to the paper about cathode cracking, and how staying below 60% SOC, will allow you to avoid cathode cracking that goes all the way from outer to inner, with pictures.

All of the posts afterward are good, then I would also look at this comment:
Battery Degradation Scientifically Explained
That post gets the optimal voltage charge limit to be 3.92V to eliminate all voltage-related stresses, from a Maxim Integrated blog, and believes that voltage is ~60% SOC.

And any post by EV-Tech Exp from the beginning of the thread is excellent. I don't really remember where I got 63% SOC from. Must have been a different thread.

Maybe I just came up with it myself. When you read some of these posts, you get that for every 70mV reduction is 10%, so if 4.1V is 90%, then 3.92V is around 64%, or something like that.
I didnt take the time to read the whole thread, or even the whole test that was refered to. I actually got a little sceptic beacuse they did some very extreme testing and the chosen test setups doesnt even come close to real world use of a Tesla:
The high cycle DOD was run from 4.3V !!! Anyone surprised if they wear out charged to 110-115% ? ( I didnt read so long that I found otut of it was a high voltage lion that was supposed to charge to 4.3V
The other low end, was down to empty battery but we have the low end buffer so we cannot get there, I think.

By the way, as I read the posts about this in this thread, I hope no one mix up DOD (Depth Of Discharge), the depth of the charging/discharging cycle with SOC (as I see a lot of 60% written, but 60% in that test is DOD, not SOC). That test can mayby say a little if it is read with a lot of other li ion battery tests. Most of the tests have some kind of angle that not really fit, or that the test setup have five different currents, DOD, ans SOC levels and then it can be hard to draw the right conclusions of what actually caused a certain test setup(SOC,DOD, current) to "kill" the battery.

What we know is that we have mainly three different things that wear the batterys: Depth of discharge, current and aging.
Small charging/discharging cycles(DOD) is good for the battery and it isnt very importand to be above or below a certain SOC-number if we stay outside extremes. Low SOC cycles does hurt less then high with the same DOD.
High currents wear, we know that. A lot of supercharging at least increases the internal resistance, but as Its not that high currents for the whole charging cycle it seems to be not too bad. Driving very hard a lot should also affect battery life( both its worth that ;) )

Aging. For the most cars, the calendar aging is a big part of the battery wear as the car sits(and maybe sleeps) for 20-23hours a day.
This investigation is very well worth the time to read:
Panasonic NCA aging

It'll say that we should stay below the central graphite peak, which is at around 57% SOC. which should be in the ball park around 3.85V.

I have some 15 years experience with lithium batteries in radio controlled aircraft world. (Yes, I play with these, but to my defence I fly real aircrafts for the livin' :))

All lithium battery charger worth the name for R/C batterys have a Storage charging mode and they charge between 3.8-3.85 v/cell for the same reason as above.
These chargers may be set to as high as safe to store the batteries, to have less charging to do when you need them, and what happens if left in storage with lower SOC then 3.8v is not 100% sience but as I have experienced it, the batterys that have done the winter with perhaps 20 or 30% doesnt keep the punch we need. They may well charge close to the original capacity, but dont perform when you need the power.

For what its worth, I'd like to stress that its important to read much more than one investigation/research report because the most of them doesnt tell the whole truth. When reading two reports, the conclusions might conflict, but if you look carefully at them and find a third you might find that the real reason wasnt high the SOC but maybe the high current that caused the difference. Actually, Id say it takes the reading of a handfull until you are ready to critically explore another battery investigaion/survey etc.

[Edit]: A little teaser from that survey.
NCA_calendar aging.png


NCA_calendar aging2.png


[Edit2]The peak at 1.6Ah, central graphite peak is the one we would want to avoid if we like to half the calendar aging.
 
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I was responding to your own post.

In that post *you* mentioned that the new SR+ show almost as good range with 100% SoC as your LR.

That has nothing to do with battery degradation, and my response was that the SR+ is even more enthusiastically optimistic about range than the earlier model (already pretty optimistic)

So please at least try to remember the topic you yourself started just a day ago before flaming others.

Its just as enthusiastic as all other cars which use epa range.
 
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While I was out in the garage and did some soldering to combine a adapter for the OBD2 for SMT with a HUD adapter, I did set tre of my lithium battery chargers to storage charge lithium ion batterys. Two of them charged the lion to 3,75V/cell and the third to 3.7V in the storage charge mode. I have a few li ion (18650) but I seldom storage charge them, the demand om them are quite low, so my memory wasnt 100% clear about the storage voltage.
 
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Hi folks, I'm a new owner, I know EPA is much different than real world driving. After 5 months I'm getting about 276 mph on 90% charge on my 2020 model, I wonder if this is what others see ( I know, driving style, climate ... ). But with the new 2021 claiming a whopping 350+ mph, I kinda started feeling a bit of range envy :)
Cheers
 
Hi folks, I'm a new owner, I know EPA is much different than real world driving. After 5 months I'm getting about 276 mph on 90% charge on my 2020 model, I wonder if this is what others see ( I know, driving style, climate ... ). But with the new 2021 claiming a whopping 350+ mph, I kinda started feeling a bit of range envy :)
Cheers

276 is very very good. I.e. i get 250 miles (not mph, mph is miles per hour...) At 90% in my 2019 3.

Driving style does not effect the rated range. Cold climate can by 2 to 3%. What it really comes down to is how much degradation you get and the 2019 batteries suck at that. If they changed the chemistry to lead to an increase in density like with the 85 to 90kwh packs but at cost of heavy degadation it might not be such a smart choice afterall. I eould.have prefered iron batteries for the top trims...
 
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I'm just about to pull the trigger on an M3P, and am trying to understand as much about it as I can before placing the order...

I do a 400-mile each way road trip several times a year. There are superchargers along the way, and the trip planner suggests that I stop at one that's about 125 miles into the trip, then another that's about 150 miles further. Given the car's rated 310-mile range, this makes me think that 275 miles of highway driving isn't feasible.

Can anyone tell me the car's realistic range at 80 mph with the AC running? Sales dude ("Owner Advisor") suggested 260 miles, but I'm not sure that I believe that...

TIA for the input!
If you start with a range of 290 miles, you will only be able to drive about 200 miles on the highway before your battery goes dead. The mileage display on the Tesla is a joke.
 
If you start with a range of 290 miles, you will only be able to drive about 200 miles on the highway before your battery goes dead. The mileage display on the Tesla is a joke.
At 65mph, 70F, my efficiency is 235 Wh/mile, good enough to get the full EPA rated range. However, I've never tried to do it, since it's not the most time-efficient way to drive a Tesla. I'd rather drive 75-80mph where my efficiency is 265Wh/mile, and stop every 100 to 150 miles, for a 10-15minute supercharger stop. That's the most time-efficient way. For me, that's all that matters. Drive relatively fast, but not fast enough to get a ticket, and stop for a cup of coffee and toilet break without having to worry about my aging bladder capacity. As long as there are well-spaced superchargers, every 100 to 150 miles, range has never been an issue.
 
If you start with a range of 290 miles, you will only be able to drive about 200 miles on the highway before your battery goes dead. The mileage display on the Tesla is a joke.
Right - my post was from over 2 years ago before I bought the car.
Now that I’ve owned it for a while and have made the trip I asked about more than 2 dozen times, I know that the quickest overall trip time is done with 2 stops for 15-20 minutes each.
Getting away from ICE mentality (drive from full to empty on the fuel gauge) takes a while.
As you appear to be a newbie, I’d suggest that you switch your display from miles remaining to SOC (%) and never look back.
 
Just got my Model 3. After charging fully (realize now I'm not supposed to do that), it only charged to 235 miles. I thought I was supposed to get 263 miles on a charge.

Thoughts?
Welcome to the forum, and grats on your Tesla!

This particular subject has been covered, recovered, covered again, then absolutely beaten to death. :) There is a ton of battery information here on the forum, and it's well worth the time to make yourself a big pot of fresh coffee, relaxing in your favorite chair, and diving in.

Here's a few links to some amazing threads to get you started:

MASTER THREAD: Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, How to Maintain Battery Health

How I Recovered Half of my Battery's Lost Capacity

2020, 2019, 2018 Model 3 Battery Capacities & Charging Constants

How to calculate battery capacity using information displayed on your cars screen

The very last link in that list is *extremely* useful, but you might not wrap your head around what it's telling you until you familiarize yourself with the previous threads a bit first.

Battery related posts and threads are so popular that there's a dedicated sub-forum for it, too: Model 3: Battery & Charging

Pretty much any battery or charging related question you can imagine has been covered in those threads, and in many cases, multiple times.

One of my pet peeves about Tesla is the way that they present energy related information, and how they have chosen not to display some very useful information at all. Ah well.. a small price to pay for such a great car.

Enjoy your new Tesla!

(moderator note: moved post you quoted into master thread. mentioning it to explain why you are mentioning the thread the post is in, in your post)
 
This is highly frustrating, car is back to a 69.2kWh nominal capacity.
According to TeslaFi no car in the fleet with similar mileage has worse range :(

You sure you are the worst? How many extrapolated 100% kms do you have? On the initial 2019 performance for aus we are pretty much all down to 450km rated. Cars with the 20" tires a bit lower as they have a different max rated range... I think my friend with the performance upgrade is only on 423km.

If i do a 100 to 15% discharge the internal trip computer shows 55kwh... So thats only 64kwh without buffer... Teslafi says 386.7km rated km consumed so that extrapolates to 454km for a 100% discharge... ( I think the internal trip computer can be a bit off.... 64kwh for a 100% discharge sounds very low)

Basically all the australian initial 2019 cars have crap batteries...the way it is...

Interestingly enough discharge cycles and ambient temps dont seem to matter at all. The degradation seems to be time based mainly.
 
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