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Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

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Besides that, as long as we have normal imbalance there is no real reason to regularly balance the battery at lower SOC’s. The exception would be if the imbalance exeeds a limit and is abnormally high at other SOC’s which would be an exception and not happening regularly.

Balancing actually only move the SOC of individual cells so the individual voltage match better at that certain SOC / Voltage.
If we balance to perfect balance at 70% SOC, it will not be perfect when reaching 40-50%.

Balancing is mostly needed to reach full capacity in the battery at 100% SOC. Otherwise the capacity would not be reached if many cells is low when the first cells reach 100%.
Yeah, obviously when balancing the cells, you don't necessarily want to equalize all the voltages at the particular SOC you're at, and I don't think that's what wk057 was implying, either.

The goal when balancing should be to maximize usable range of the battery pack.

In the past, people use to argue for bottom-balancing the pack - this has the benefit of limiting time spent at high SOC for the better modules and also making it a bit easier to detect 0% SOC and maximizing range. But it seems that pretty much everyone goes for top-balancing these days, presumably because people typically charge to 100% much more frequently than discharging to 0%.

When wk057 said that Tesla might start balancing the pack at any point in time and at any SOC, that would mean that they are trying to shift the SOC down for modules that are higher than others, presumably so that you can get better range.

Take a simple hypothetical scenario for example:
Simple 2-cell pack in series that you know the current SOC and capacity of. Cell 1 has a capacity of 1 Ah and is at 50% SOC (500 mAh remaining), Cell 2 has a capacity of 2 Ah but is at 20% SOC (400 mAh remaining). Here you'd like to bleed off about 100 mAh from Cell 1. The BMS knows the value of the balance resistor and voltage of the cell, so it can calculate how long it needs to keep the balance resistor on to bleed off 100 mAh from Cell 1.

Balancing should not cause a significant mount of energy consumption - if this were the case you would have a serious issue with the pack quickly going out of balance and more likely, the BMS would not be able to keep up due to the high value of resistors used to bleed energy off.
 
Take a simple hypothetical scenario for example:
Simple 2-cell pack in series that you know the current SOC and capacity of. Cell 1 has a capacity of 1 Ah and is at 50% SOC (500 mAh remaining), Cell 2 has a capacity of 2 Ah but is at 20% SOC (400 mAh remaining). Here you'd like to bleed off about 100 mAh from Cell 1. The BMS knows the value of the balance resistor and voltage of the cell, so it can calculate how long it needs to keep the balance resistor on to bleed off 100 mAh from Cell 1.

Well, it is a very strange example but you would not like to have different SOC between the cells In that case. Any balancing would try to even the voltage = even out the SOC to the same level.
Battery cell number 1 if bleeded 100mah ( = to 40% SOC ) would have much higher cell voltage than cell number 2 at 20% SOC. Remember that SOC = a defined OCV voltage.
When loading the battery, the smaller cell with higher SOC would deliver the same current but a higher voltage, thus having a higher C load and delivering a higher power. Higher C load means higher cyclic aging, so in the long term that cell will break long before the other.
(I have a lot of example of exactly this situation, which rendered a bunch of batteries unusable).

Heres a schematic why top balancing is prefered in many cases: Different cells has different capacity and as we have a bottom buffer which we should not plan to use, the difference can safely be put in the buffer zone, and then we can use the maximum capacity.
(you can not drive the whole buffer as the car will stop/shut down when the first battery reach the low voltage limit. But you get a higher usable capacity above the buffer, which is the goal.).

2AEDB015-06F7-422C-9BFA-347F27368B3F.png


In the picture below the cell capacity is on the horisontal axis and the voltage is on the vertical axis.
The upper example, with the cells in perfect balance at a specific SOC (it could be *any* SOC, but not 100%).
If we let the car balance the cells at for example 70%, ans many use 70% as the daily SOC target…and the delta is 10mV (not impossible) and the target for balancing is to stop at 4mV delta then it would cost 6mV on the highest cells and maybe 3mV in average to reach a balanced pack. 3/1000 = 0.3%, or 0.25kWh or so. Next charge, a full charge would cost more as the spread is higher at the ends due to the voltage curves being steep at the ends. I guess we could assume 0.5kWh or more. Then if the car is later left with 40% there will be a slight imbalance and if the car spontaniously would balance, there would be a quite big balancing as the last balancing was done at full SOC. Each balancing act with different SOC will cost unnessesary energy as we earlier have displaced the voltage curve to match at another SOC.

To only two reasons to balance a Tesla is top balancing to:
- “Fill it up”
- Correct a balance that is going off limits, which is going to cause a problem if not corrected.

The second reason would not happen often at all. When a series of battery cells in a pack that are not in bad shape is having a resonable load and normal charging sessions they strive to go close in SOC, like self balancing. If one cell get slightly higher in SOC it will deliver more energy and this even out the SOC for normal “nice” use. Using 20-90% SOC with normal charging and driving most likely will not cause a diverting imbalance as they sort of self level.
Hard use with high loads and/or high charge current could cause the imbalance to increase, and the need for balancing could occur. Old battery packs that have been used without proper balancing probably have destroyed some cells which cause imbalance and even more destructiuon of the bad cells.
For a Tesla that probably give the batteries a nice life and with a proper balancing system that keeps the cells in balance when needed i I would think that the cells age well togheter and keep the characteristics so the need for balancing other than at high SOC would be rare.
FB7DA398-0E93-402F-BA08-A8EC7B94F622.png

Balancing should not cause a significant mount of energy consumption - if this were the case you would have a serious issue with the pack quickly going out of balance and more likely, the BMS would not be able to keep up due to the high value of resistors used to bleed energy off.

The energy consumption would come from many balance sessions. Specially if the car would balance at different SOC, that would induce a spread that would be needed to balance back.
For example, charging to 90% and getting the cells perfectly in balance you can discharge to low SOC (and see a higher spread) and then charge back to 90% and the spread recudes again (imbalance would be low) as the battery was in balance at 90%. The need for balancing will be low, with a low energy use.

Charging to 90% + balancing, and discharge to 30% and then balance there would cause a bigger need as the difference in capacity cause the cells to spread a little. If then charging back to 90% and balancing that session also need more balancing at we actually induce imbalance at 90% when we do the 30% balancing.

A lot of balancing at different SOC’s would induce more need for balancing = a bad circle causing enegy loss.

If we have the cells in decent balance at the charging target for example 70% and we accept to have a slight imbalance, lets say 5 or 10mV we do not need to balance there, after discharge and new charge to 70% the imbalance probably ends up about the same. No balancing and no energy loss.
 
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Specially if the car would balance at different SOC, that would induce a spread that would be needed to balance back.
You're missing the point - perhaps I'm not explaining myself very well. Just because the car balances at say, 50%, doesn't mean that it isn't doing the equivalent of top-balancing.

It has been reported that Tesla knows very well the exact capacity of each module in the pack. If you know the capacity and exact SOC of each module, you can effectively top balance the pack regardless of the actual SOC of the pack.
 
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Here's the warning vid:
He warns about that the test takes the battery to 0%, but that is not unsafe for the battery.
He also warns about that it charges to 100%, which also is not that bad. About at bad as 80 or 90% so...

He got 93% SOH in the test but did'nt understand it.

If the embedded picture of teslafi is from his car, it is in line with the seervice mode test.
The charging constant is 137Wh/km (79000/576)
Teslafi show about 546km range. 546 x 137 = 74.8kWh.
The 82kWh battery seems to begin at about 80.6kWh (at least in the Performance).
74.8 / 80.6 = 92.8%
 
He warns about that the test takes the battery to 0%, but that is not unsafe for the battery.
He also warns about that it charges to 100%, which also is not that bad. About at bad as 80 or 90% so...

He got 93% SOH in the test but did'nt understand it.

If the embedded picture of teslafi is from his car, it is in line with the seervice mode test.
The charging constant is 137Wh/km (79000/576)
Teslafi show about 546km range. 546 x 137 = 74.8kWh.
The 82kWh battery seems to begin at about 80.6kWh (at least in the Performance).
74.8 / 80.6 = 92.8%
I cannot love this post enough and I am very glad I no longer need to watch the video. Thanks @AAKEE.

I guess this implies Tesla thinks about 80.6kWh or so is the starting point for these packs, Performance or not. Which makes sense since they are all “82.1kWh” packs.
 
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He got 93% SOH in the test but did'nt understand it.

I forgot to write about the State Of Health, SOH.

SOH is widely used in research and I have never seen another definition than:
SOH = present battery capacity / battery capacity when new (or rated capacity)
Expressed in percent it is the normal.

So at least for researchers, it is telling exactly the same thing as “we” on TMC when we talk about degradation in percent.
Degradation = What the battery lost.
SOH = Whats left.
 
Batteries degrade from cyclic aging, but also calendar aging.

Calendar aging is much higher than cyclic aging for most people (cars, really) for at least the five firast years or so.

Calendar aging is reducing by the square root of time, so to double any degradation value you need 4x time.
5-6% is common the firsta year. Year two only cause about 2-2.5% and so on.
View attachment 869257


Cyclic aging wear much less.
The graph below from a cycle test of a Panasonic NCA.
They did use quite large cycles (about 100-30%), which cause more degradation then smaller cycles. Still, 790 cycles is about 500 Full Cycle equivalent and did cause about 13.5% degradation, so we would get about 1000 FCE before reaching 30% degradation.

This indicates 1000 FCE, which would be about 350.000-400.000 km for a long range car, so this would cost about 0.8% /10.000km. This despite the 100% SOC on each cycle, cycled down to about 30%. In real life, we would be more carefull with our batteries so we would have less degradation per driven mile. This will put us well below 1.6% cyclic aging /20.000km or per year for the average tesla driver. We can probably count with about 1% or less each year from cyclic aging.

I was left with the impression that NCA cells don't like to have low SOC just like they don't like high SOC. Is that not the case? If the main factors are depth of discharge and calendar ageing then what is the issue with low SOC? Based on the graphs it seems like if your daily drive consumes 40% you are better off going between 10% and 50% instead of between 30% and 70%. What am I missing?
 
Is that not the case?
No, it's not. There's no issue with low SOC as long as you don't get it too low (which is very low and prevented by the BMS). In practice there's minimal benefit to going below 20% and it's nice to maintain features so it is good to maintain a charge level that gets you through the day while keeping you above 20% at all times (of course, it's fine to drop below that on your way home).
 
I was left with the impression that NCA cells don't like to have low SOC just like they don't like high SOC. Is that not the case? If the main factors are depth of discharge and calendar ageing then what is the issue with low SOC? Based on the graphs it seems like if your daily drive consumes 40% you are better off going between 10% and 50% instead of between 30% and 70%. What am I missing?

You was probably hit by the same myths as most other people.

The lower SOC the better when it comes to calendar aging (which is our batteries main degrading factor).
335567A6-D5DF-4F4E-AEBB-9A99A06DC308.jpeg
(Just a thumbnail this time, already posted thousand times).

There is a lot of research and they all tell the same, so its not just that single chart above.

For the cyclic part, from a 2020 research report:
DA24DACD-C153-4BB5-9252-45D976025A9C.jpeg


The most left is NCA at 40-60% cycles
Second left is NCA at 20-80% cycles
The rest is NCA at 0-100% cycles.

Color coding according to this:
F77B30E0-CC33-407F-BDE6-989F7E7B95BC.jpeg

The 40-60 and 20-80 cycles was at quite low current.

The 0-100% didnt perform much worse than 20-80. Knowing that high SOC cycles increase the wear much, we can definitely say that low SOC is not ”dangerous”.

One example, for the basics: between 90-10% and 90-0%, the total number of energi delivered until the battery has dropped to the 80% industry limit is the same. 90-10 will hold up about 10% more cycles but as each cycle is about 10% less, the total energy ( = miles driven in the car) is the same.
 
I was left with the impression that NCA cells don't like to have low SOC just like they don't like high SOC. Is that not the case? If the main factors are depth of discharge and calendar ageing then what is the issue with low SOC? Based on the graphs it seems like if your daily drive consumes 40% you are better off going between 10% and 50% instead of between 30% and 70%. What am I missing?
Manufacturers discourage use of very low SoCs because going too low (like below 0%) can damage the battery irreversibly (like the protection circuit opens and the battery can't be used any longer). They're afraid that someone's going to store a battery at 2% for weeks or months and when the person goes back to use it, it will be dead. Storage at very low SoCs is fine but you'd better make sure it doesn't dip too low.
 
I was left with the impression that NCA cells don't like to have low SOC just like they don't like high SOC. Is that not the case? If the main factors are depth of discharge and calendar ageing then what is the issue with low SOC?
Main issues with low state of charge:
  • Driver's range anxiety. Most drivers are not able to estimate use so that they arrive at home at their garage charging plug just as it gets to 0% or 1%.
  • Vampire drain while parked and not plugged in may drain the battery from 1% to below 0%, which could actually be bad for the battery (and/or the 12V battery).
 
Main issues with low state of charge:
  • Driver's range anxiety. Most drivers are not able to estimate use so that they arrive at home at their garage charging plug just as it gets to 0% or 1%.
  • Vampire drain while parked and not plugged in may drain the battery from 1% to below 0%, which could actually be bad for the battery (and/or the 12V battery).
Its mainly a question of the low voltage battery when being lead acid. They are sensitive to low SOC. They take a hot as soon as the SOC starts to go down.

The HV battery will not get damaged if the car is driven until it stops and charged again soon as the protection will protect and shut down the car and slso isolate the HV batt from further discharge.

The manual is quite clear on this and there is no warnings in the manual about having low SOC och using the car with low SOC.

The only warning is to make sure that it do not reach or go below 0% if left at low SOC for longer time. I think the manual refers to 1% per day and that two weeks need 14%.
 
I think one good thing is to read the Tesla manual and see what really is written there about batteries. And to read exactly what is written without filling in things that simply was not printed there.

I see daily posts about what ”Tesla advices about batteries” which simply is forum myths.
 
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I think one good thing is to read the Tesla manual and see what really is written there about batteries. And to read exactly what is written without filling in things that simply was not printed there.

I see daily posts about what ”Tesla advices about batteries” which simply is forum myths.
While on the topic of low SoC, I have heard some say you should only accelerate lightly when at low SoC. They mention 'bricking' the battery pack if you floor it with too low of a SoC. I'd imagine there is some protection in the software to prevent the skinny pedal from causing harm to the pack. Any thoughts on this?
 
While on the topic of low SoC, I have heard some say you should only accelerate lightly when at low SoC. They mention 'bricking' the battery pack if you floor it with too low of a SoC. I'd imagine there is some protection in the software to prevent the skinny pedal from causing harm to the pack. Any thoughts on this?
The primary concern would be massive structural damage from someone crashing into you. Car will just shut down and leave you in the middle of the road, if there is any issue with pack voltages. No other issues though.

Floor it! That's what it's for. Unless you don't want to be sitting in the middle of the road, in which case a little care might be helpful.
 
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You was probably hit by the same myths as most other people.

The lower SOC the better when it comes to calendar aging (which is our batteries main degrading factor).
View attachment 874937
(Just a thumbnail this time, already posted thousand times).

There is a lot of research and they all tell the same, so its not just that single chart above.

For the cyclic part, from a 2020 research report:
View attachment 874940

The most left is NCA at 40-60% cycles
Second left is NCA at 20-80% cycles
The rest is NCA at 0-100% cycles.

Color coding according to this:
View attachment 874943
The 40-60 and 20-80 cycles was at quite low current.

The 0-100% didnt perform much worse than 20-80. Knowing that high SOC cycles increase the wear much, we can definitely say that low SOC is not ”dangerous”.

One example, for the basics: between 90-10% and 90-0%, the total number of energi delivered until the battery has dropped to the 80% industry limit is the same. 90-10 will hold up about 10% more cycles but as each cycle is about 10% less, the total energy ( = miles driven in the car) is the same.

I remember this recommendation from Elon on twitter maybe that's why people are confused.
Do you have the paper that you are snipping from? I'd like to read more about this.