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Real World Range Questions (Winter)

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@brianman and @johngray

What kind of driving styles are we talking about here? Are you seriously only getting 180miles of range due to something as trivial as rain and it being dark?

This is worrying to me as I will be counting on getting at least 230miles of range in the autumn and winter months here in Norway.. Those months includes a lot of rain, dark, cold, snow etc...As this will be the only car in the family I will need to have heat, AC and lights on the car at all times.. No way Im letting my son sit and freeze in the back-seat on longer journeys:(

Sorry if this is taking the thread of topic..

You will definitely not see 230 in those conditions... Tesla points out in the manual that heating the cabin is a drain. Add lights and highway driving... and you will be taxing the battery system. On my recharges, 238-242 has been the suggested range here in Florida.
 
You will definitely not see 230 in those conditions... Tesla points out in the manual that heating the cabin is a drain. Add lights and highway driving... and you will be taxing the battery system. On my recharges, 238-242 has been the suggested range here in Florida.
My UI regularly reports something like 160projected/238rated on a standard charge. (I have yet to use range charge.)
 
@steve841
ok, thanks for quick reply. Would need this kind of range 4-5times a year. But i'm not buying a car at this cost if it cant do that sort of range in the winter... Hopefully someone in the colder parts of america can report on this before I have to finalize my car... This is actually the only possible dealbreaker for me so far.

But enough off-topic from me!
 
Projected range has been pretty bad with the heater on. It's a significant drain. I've gotten much closer to rated range when I have the HVAC stuff off, as radio and headlights don't drain nearly as much as the heater does. I bet the "range driving mode" update will help this, by making it a little less aggressive at heating when you want it to.
 
@steve841
ok, thanks for quick reply. Would need this kind of range 4-5times a year. But i'm not buying a car at this cost if it cant do that sort of range in the winter... Hopefully someone in the colder parts of america can report on this before I have to finalize my car... This is actually the only possible dealbreaker for me so far.

But enough off-topic from me!
For the record, I don't agree with the title of the thread. Range is fine; I just hoped I'd be doing better than I am. Disappointed is not the right word by any stretch.
 
For several years, I've used the rough metric that really bad weather can knock off up to 1/3 of your range. 2/3 of 265 is 177 miles. I haven't tested this in the S yet, but let's run some rough numbers to see if that might hold.

From previous discussions, in good weather at ~60mph you should burn about the rated range of 308Wh/mile (one of Tesla's linked charts shows a smaller number than that; but as the comment from Rod and Barbara notes, it doesn't match the other graph. I think 308 is a pretty good number that fits in with most calculations). 308 * 265 miles = 81.62kWh. 85kWh may be a nominal value, with some in reserve.

Now let's assume some incredibly bad weather. Pushing water out of the way in heavy rain may add 5%, which would put it up to 323.4wh/mile. I'm guessing on the 5%, so let's be conservative and make the math easy, and just say 3 miles per kWh to push the car (even though that's more like 8%).

If you drive for 3 hours or 180 miles, you'll use 60hWh pushing the car. Cinergi turned the HVAC controls up full blast and said it looked like it was pulling about 7.5kW. Over three hours, that would be an additional 22.5kWh. Add that to the 60kWh to push the car, and it looks like you just passed the limit.

So worst case, 177 miles could well be the limit (at 60mph). Note that that is REALLY bad weather; I can't imagine keeping the HVAC at full blast for three hours, although I live in a pretty temperate area. These are very rough calculations and I haven't driven in really bad weather in the Model S yet. In slightly-cold-with-just-a-little-rain weather at 68mph, I've typically been on track to get about 240 miles of range, so I've been a lot closer to best case than worst case.

Here's a rough chart to illustrate the point. I took Tesla's wh/mile numbers, bumped them up 8% because they didn't match other numbers we know (including the other chart in the blog linked above), and that's the green line on the top. The I applied Cinergi's roughly-measured 7.5kW pull for all HVAC on high, that's the shaded part. I didn't add the ~5% drag for rain. But depending on how high the HVAC is turned up (and remember there may be some automatic usage for the battery even if you have climate control turned off in the cabin), your expected range should fall somewhere in the shaded area.

Model S Range.jpg


At slower speeds around town, HVAC can exact a very heavy toll. But man, you'd have to be driving for many hours to run in to trouble - no need to worry about that end of the graph. At freeway speeds, how fast you're driving still matters more than HVAC.

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Note: in all of the above, I assume the driver is using the throttle carefully and TRYING to get good range. The above calculations show a constant draw to push the car at 60mph in rain of 20kW. But if you mash the throttle to accelerate, you can pull over 300kW; it won't take much of that to skew these numbers. This is one of the reasons why some people driving around in town (and doing a lot of accelerating, which is a big deal in a car this heavy) are seeing low projected ranges despite low speeds. Another reason is the start-of-trip HVAC overhead of getting the car (including the powertrain; not just the interior) to the right temperature is a much bigger deal over short trips than long trips.
 
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Even with cruise control at 60 on a relatively flat section of freeway with no climate control on, I'm not getting 308 Wh/mile. At least, not from what I recall. I'll try it out again later.
 
On my recent 1/2 Trans-Canada trip (BC to Manitoba down to Iowa, and back) in my Roadster, I had a pretty extreme experience that should give some colour to the discussion. On the way back, I ran into early winter conditions as I crossed into Alberta. I charged almost fully in Medicine Hat and then headed for Calgary, 295 km way, into a howling, blasting snowstorm, with about 20-25 mph of wind right on the nose. Temperatures fell to about -10C. There is NO place to charge in between, so I HAD to make it. I dressed quite warmly, was wearing thick fleece hat, gloves, heavy wool socks, etc. After 50 km or so, I realized that I could not make it doing even 100 km/h. I slowed to 90 km/h and even to 80 km/h climbing hills, which was not crazy anyway, since the snow was nearly blinding, and the road was slick in spots. I kept the seat heater on high but only used the cabin heater periodically, mostly to defrost the windshield when necessary. Long story short, I made it, but with only about 7% of the battery left (the Roadster stops reporting range at 10%). Key was watching consumption constantly and adjusting speed and heater use to keep the estimated range more than distance remaining.

I am not saying that many Model S drivers want that kind of adventure, but the key take home is that you have to take conditions into account. You have choices. If you see you need to, slow down. The worst enemy of a long-range drive, near the capacity of the car, is time. If you insist on a schedule for a long drive, you WILL get caught short someday. I know; I had to tow my Roadster up my driveway once, because of such stubbornness.
 
An ICE car typically gets 25% less mpg when temperatures are below freezing--even less as temperatures fall below zero F. The difference is that most ICE cars don't have enough instrumentation to show this and ICE drivers seldom know their real mpg (the few that do are the ones that keep a logbook). It's no surprise that a BEV does the same. Some of the major factors contributing to higher energy usage are: higher rolling resistance from rain or snow on the road, cabin heating, colder air is denser, people forget to adjust tire pressures upwards to compensate for the shrinking air.
 
You will definitely not see 230 in those conditions... Tesla points out in the manual that heating the cabin is a drain. Add lights and highway driving... and you will be taxing the battery system. On my recharges, 238-242 has been the suggested range here in Florida.

I'm not so sure. Consider that the top allowed speed in Norway is 62mph, and that is not too common. I can't think of any road I could be legally doing 62 on for more that ~70 miles or so in a stretch. Our most common speed limits are 43mph and 50mph and on longer drives I usually average about 45-46mph. That should definately help range.
 
That would definitely help, but that 230 miles is cutting it pretty close in winter driving. The higher air density will be much less of a factor at 45 mph than 65. But heat, specifically full cabin heat is going to make that tough. Of course, if there is a handy place to plug in while getting lunch along the way, that will help out.
If I was doing this only a few times a year, I would rent another vehicle during winter for the trip. At least until there was more real world data.
 
If I was doing this only a few times a year, I would rent another vehicle during winter for the trip. At least until there was more real world data.
Hehe, I knew someone would mention that. But renting a vehicle of similar size in Norway for the amount of time needed would easily come to 5000USD or more a year for me. Spending ~100k and then not getting to use it in winter doesnt compute with me or my wife!

This really sucks. Looks like Model S isnt for me after all if this turns out to be true:crying:

Had been hearing Roadster-stories of only 5% less range in winter here in Norway, but if that is without heat or other standard comforts then electric vehicles just isnt ready for my usage yet.
 
Hehe, I knew someone would mention that. But renting a vehicle of similar size in Norway for the amount of time needed would easily come to 5000USD or more a year for me. Spending ~100k and then not getting to use it in winter doesnt compute with me or my wife!

This really sucks. Looks like Model S isnt for me after all if this turns out to be true:crying:

Had been hearing Roadster-stories of only 5% less range in winter here in Norway, but if that is without heat or other standard comforts then electric vehicles just isnt ready for my usage yet.

For you then the question is when Tesla will build superchargers in Norway. Earlier they`ve stated that superchargers will be built in Europe in 2013, and since noone in Norway will take delivery until Q2 2013, that`s probably not a big problem. Norway is Teslas second largest market, and I believe Tesla will cover Norway quite quickly. Theoretically Tesla can cover all the biggest cities in Norway with 3-4 superchargers (Oslo, Trondheim, Bergen, Stavanger). That`s half the amount of superchargers already deployed in California. Tesla will hopefully deploy 6-8 superchargers to make it more convenient, and deploy the chargers in cooperation with some decent provider of snack/meals. In my opinion, range is not an issue. I`ll be doing Oslo-Trondheim at least a couple of times a year, and I`m not worrying about range....
 
Yeah, I wasn't sure how easy it is to rent in Norway.
Sounds like you will either need some charging available (isn't Norway one of the biggest EV/capita countries?), or one more generation of battery tech, or borrow a neighbors vehicle for those 4-5 trips:)
However, I would first take the experiences of other people's experience in your area.
Higher air density probably has a much higher affect on us drivers in the USA as it sounds like our average speeds are much higher.
 
For you then the question is when Tesla will build superchargers in Norway. Earlier they`ve stated that superchargers will be built in Europe in 2013, and since noone in Norway will take delivery until Q2 2013, that`s probably not a big problem. Norway is Teslas second largest market, and I believe Tesla will cover Norway quite quickly. Theoretically Tesla can cover all the biggest cities in Norway with 3-4 superchargers (Oslo, Trondheim, Bergen, Stavanger). That`s half the amount of superchargers already deployed in California. Tesla will hopefully deploy 6-8 superchargers to make it more convenient, and deploy the chargers in cooperation with some decent provider of snack/meals. In my opinion, range is not an issue. I`ll be doing Oslo-Trondheim at least a couple of times a year, and I`m not worrying about range....
Yes, a supercharger would solve this as we always make at least one stop, but I have to admit I'm skeptical about when and where these stations will be placed until I actually see a confirmed piece of info from Tesla here. For me a supercharger between Oslo and Kristiansand would solve my problem without a doubt and actually would make range-charging unnecessary, but my gut-feeling is that this route isn't the route Tesla will place these superchargers first. I'm thinking Oslo <-> Trondheim and Oslo <-> Bergen will be first in line.

From information on the net today there are no good charging options on the route between Oslo and Kristiansand at the moment. There are some stations, but not with enough juice as far as I can see to actually make a difference on range on a Model S.

I really hope the likes of cinergi or other contributors here on the TMC-forum will be able to do range-tests in winter-conditions before I get my finalize email. I don't need sauna-temperatures in the car of course, but my by then two year old son in the backseat shouldn't be cold. And I also don't want any fogging on the windows. Also remembering that day-time running lights are mandatory by law in Norway so lights always needs to be on.

My journey would be with these conditions/criteria:
1. Car preheated of course before start of journey to avoid wasting energy on getting the cabin to the correct temperature.
2. Full range charge.
3. Around 100miles of Norwegian style highways with an average speed of maybe 65-70mph. Legal limit 62mph.
4. Remaining 130miles on Norwegian normal single lane in each direction type roads. Average speed maybe 40-45mph. More or less constant changes in elevation, but no really big hills.
5. Lights always on due to Norwegian laws.
6. 19" Nokian Hakka Rs or Michelin X-iCE2 non-studded winter-tires. Only valid option in my mind on a rear wheel drive with that much power on winter-roads.
7. Economical driving style with using regen or coasting as much as possible.
8. Probable something I forgot;)

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Yeah, I wasn't sure how easy it is to rent in Norway.
Sounds like you will either need some charging available (isn't Norway one of the biggest EV/capita countries?), or one more generation of battery tech, or borrow a neighbors vehicle for those 4-5 trips:)
However, I would first take the experiences of other people's experience in your area.
Higher air density probably has a much higher affect on us drivers in the USA as it sounds like our average speeds are much higher.
Average speed in the US is much higher yes. I've actually driven quite a bit in the US. One trip(Boston -> Toronto -> NYC), one full day in a corvette in California and a week on Oahu. The normal Norwegian roads compare most to the non-highway roads in Hawaii/Oahu actually. Our highways only cover a very small portion of our road infrastructure:( As mentioned above that at most half of my journey here would be on highways.



Regarding rolling resistance from snow that is actually not that big of a deal on these trips. Most roads in Norway are quickly plowed and salted so its only when its actually snowing you see much/any snow on the roads.
 
It would be nice if we could order regular-e glass for all windows except the (also shaded) windshield. This for regions where air "conditioning' is rarely if ever used. Then solar gain would warm the car to the max. All you would then need would be an air circulator directed at the feet. Would definitely save heater use.
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I would love some more info about how much power the heater consumes continuously in cold weather. I can't believe it's burning 7.5 kW continuously. That would have to be purely resistive.

Might it be using a resistive device until the heat pump is up and running?

The heat pump in my house produces 3.6 kW of heat at max power, and max power is 600 watts of input. The manufacturer claims it delivers 3.6 kW down to -15 deg C, which seems correct to me. We permanently disconnected 3 kW of electric heating after installing it and burn almost no wood anymore. It's still gushing hot air at -25 deg C, I would guesstimate at least 2 kW.

I'm almost (but not quite) ready to eat my best pair of woolen socks for dinner if it's really using 7.5 kW continuously using only a heat pump.
 
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