Reuters: "Tesla readies revamped Model 3 with project 'Highland' -sources" [projected 3rd quarter 2023]

[Gauss Guzzler]

It has nothing to do with glass, it's the crossbeam that is needed regardless of roof material. The crossbeam that Tesla uses in the S/X/Y is exactly the same as the crossbeam on any metal-roofed car.

The Kia is a SUV like the Model Y, the Prius is prius-shaped, and the Polestar is a boxy crossover with significantly lower efficiency. If you want a sleek mid-size sedan, the Model 3 has the market cornered. If you want something else, the world is your oyster.

 

[ucmndd]

Assuming there really is a model 2.

I doubt there’s any appreciable market in the US for a smaller than Model 3 EV. It might sell great in the rest of the world, but doubt it will be a profitable sell here. I’d be surprised if they even bother importing it and they certainly won’t build it here (presuming it does exist at some point).

 

[Bouba]

I never understood why the Model 3 was not a hatchback like all the other Tesla?

I guess, the Model 3 design was using the BMW M3 and Audi A4 as template,
(I think remembering that Elon Musk refered those two cars at the time).

Especially considering that Franz von Holzhausen was previously at Mazda when the Mazda3 second generation hatchback was introduced.
Also the first generation Hyundai Ioniq, and other cars like the Toyota Prius at the time, were also hatchback.

The later Tesla Model Y is a hatchback, but was designed as a 7-seat and is much taller and heavier than the Model 3.

Tesla really need a smaller Model 2 hatchback and also a real 3-row type of mini van, cheaper than the Model X.

It’s also possible that the design remit for the Model 3 was for a smaller affordable Model S

 

[Watts_Up]

I doubt there’s any appreciable market in the US for a smaller than Model 3 EV. It might sell great in the rest of the world, but doubt it will be a profitable sell here. I’d be surprised if they even bother importing it and they certainly won’t build it here (presuming it does exist at some point).

I imagine that the Tesla RoboTaxi will be mostly based on the Model 2 in any country.

 

[Watts_Up]

It has nothing to do with glass, it's the crossbeam that is needed regardless of roof material. The crossbeam that Tesla uses in the S/X/Y is exactly the same as the crossbeam on any metal-roofed car.

The Kia is a SUV like the Model Y, the Prius is prius-shaped, and the Polestar is a boxy crossover with significantly lower efficiency. If you want a sleek mid-size sedan, the Model 3 has the market cornered. If you want something else, the world is your oyster.

View attachment 967762

Here is a comparison with the 2016 Hyunday Ioniq, the 2017 Tesla Model 3, and the 2023 Toyota Prius, wich all have similar height.

2016 - 2022 Hyundai Ioniq (AE)

Wheelbase 106.3 in (2,700 mm)
Length 176.0 in (4,470 mm)
Width 71.7 in (1,820 mm)
Height 57.1 in (1,450 mm)

2017 - Present - Tesla Model 3

Wheelbase 113.2 in (2,875 mm)
Length 184.8 in (4,694 mm)
Width 72.8 in (1,849 mm)
Height 56.8 in (1,443 mm)


2023 Toyota Prius Limited AWD (US)

Wheelbase 108.3 in (2,750 mm)
Length 181.1 in (4,600 mm)
Width 70.1 in (1,780 mm)
Height 55.9–56.3 in (1,420–1,430 mm)

 

[Bouba]

Looking at the renderings of Highland…the nose has gone from a little bit Porschey to a whole lot Hyundai

 

[Richbot]

Model X has a grill like design element. It has no air flow. Gives the large frontal area some style and "T" Branding.

Avoids some of the Duck Bill styling of the 3&Y.

It is relatively small, dresses up the styling, but has no mechanical or cooling purpose.

This is not true. X upper opening is ducted/sealed somewhat to provide flow to the radiator, at least on the legacy cars. you can feel airflow through it when the fans are on, and it's pretty obvious when the front bumper is off and/or when you have the frunk trim out. It may not matter for cooling, but it's not a dummy hole

 

[Bouba]

I imagine that the Tesla RoboTaxi will be mostly based on the Model 2 in any country.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the M2 is a two door hatchback (three doors?)...nobody wants a two door taxi

 

[stopcrazypp]

Here is a comparison with the 2016 Hyunday Ioniq, the 2017 Tesla Model 3, and the 2023 Toyota Prius, wich all have similar height.

2016 - 2022 Hyundai Ioniq (AE)

Wheelbase 106.3 in (2,700 mm)
Length 176.0 in (4,470 mm)
Width 71.7 in (1,820 mm)
Height 57.1 in (1,450 mm)

2017 - Present - Tesla Model 3

Wheelbase 113.2 in (2,875 mm)
Length 184.8 in (4,694 mm)
Width 72.8 in (1,849 mm)
Height 56.8 in (1,443 mm)


2023 Toyota Prius Limited AWD (US)

Wheelbase 108.3 in (2,750 mm)
Length 181.1 in (4,600 mm)
Width 70.1 in (1,780 mm)
Height 55.9–56.3 in (1,420–1,430 mm)


View attachment 967802

The Ioniq illustrates his point, the butt is raised up to have the "Prius" look, which some people consider "fugly". That's what Tesla was trying to avoid and also the 2023 Prius was trying to change (the butt is no longer tall enough to have/need that split rear glass viewport between the rear lights that the outgoing model and the Ioniq has).

The new Prius is closer to the Model 3 in styling, but it made compromises to achieve that. The rear headroom is reduced compared to the old version (36.4 in vs 37.4 in vs Model 3 37.7 inch) and the drag coefficient is worse 0.27 vs the outgoing model at 0.24 (vs 0.23 for Model 3).

2023 Toyota Prius Specs Revealed: Better in Some Ways, Worse in Others

The new Prius is more efficient and more powerful than before, but it sacrifices passenger space and cargo room in the name of style.

www.caranddriver.com

Having a hatch, you will always compromise somewhere whether it's styling (by having a raised butt), aerodynamics (as the new Prius did), or reduced rear headroom (by keeping same exact styling, but having the beam at the back of the head of the rear passengers). That beam must be there for the hatch hinge, you can't just move it somewhere else. There is no free lunch.

I have been following the Model 3 since before launch. Rear headroom was a big concern and was mentioned as a big reason for its current design. They had experience with the Model S which had relatively poor headroom for a vehicle of its size, due to factors mentioned (trying to have a lower sleek rear end, but the hatch making it so the rear beam is right at the rear passengers head).

 

[ucmndd]

I imagine that the Tesla RoboTaxi will be mostly based on the Model 2 in any country.

Nobody wants to cram into the back of a subcompact hatch for a taxi ride. Certainly not in the US.

 

[jabloomf1230]

Forget the M2 as the robotaxi. My prediction is that the Tesla robotaxi will be a van built on the cyber truck "frame". It will be revealed 2024 Q1.

 

[Watts_Up]

The Ioniq illustrates his point, the butt is raised up to have the "Prius" look, which some people consider "fugly". That's what Tesla was trying to avoid and also the 2023 Prius was trying to change (the butt is no longer tall enough to have/need that split rear glass viewport between the rear lights that the outgoing model and the Ioniq has).

The new Prius is closer to the Model 3 in styling, but it made compromises to achieve that. The rear headroom is reduced compared to the old version (36.4 in vs 37.4 in vs Model 3 37.7 inch) and the drag coefficient is worse 0.27 vs the outgoing model at 0.24 (vs 0.23 for Model 3).

2023 Toyota Prius Specs Revealed: Better in Some Ways, Worse in Others

The new Prius is more efficient and more powerful than before, but it sacrifices passenger space and cargo room in the name of style.

www.caranddriver.com

Having a hatch, you will always compromise somewhere whether it's styling (by having a raised butt), aerodynamics (as the new Prius did), or reduced rear headroom (by keeping same exact styling, but having the beam at the back of the head of the rear passengers). That beam must be there for the hatch hinge, you can't just move it somewhere else. There is no free lunch.

I have been following the Model 3 since before launch. Rear headroom was a big concern and was mentioned as a big reason for its current design. They had experience with the Model S which had relatively poor headroom for a vehicle of its size, due to factors mentioned (trying to have a lower sleek rear end, but the hatch making it so the rear beam is right at the rear passengers head).

Another possiility for avoding having the hatch hinge taking some headroom is to have a slidding rear gate.
But in this case you cannot have a roof rack.

Hyundai applies to patent 'sliding tailgate'

Hyundai has submitted a patent application for a "sliding tailgate" that slides the rear door up over the roof instead of having it hinge from the top and open outward from the vehicle.

www.autoblog.com

 

[chinney]

Nobody wants to cram into the back of a subcompact hatch for a taxi ride. Certainly not in the US.

But you could make it a stationwagon. *Gasp*

Granted, it would still not sell all that well in the U.S., where that vehicle format has become - for reasons I have never fathomed - pretty much a non-starter. But it would sell great everywhere else. And maybe people Stateside would eventually comer around to buy it, if you market it as a 'sportwagon' or come up with some other marketing ploy. Maybe Tesla could get away with it, even if other domestic manufacturers can't.

I have always liked the wagon format myself. They tend to be lower, lighter and sleeker than SUVs, while still having much of the utility. I have never understood the attraction of the high, boxy SUV style and have stood dumbfounded as it as utterly taken over in the past 25 years. I realize that I am very much in the minority on these points.

 

[ucmndd]

But you could make it a stationwagon. *Gasp*

Granted, it would still not sell all that well in the U.S., where that vehicle format has become - for reasons I have never fathomed - pretty much a non-starter. But it would sell great everywhere else. And maybe people Stateside would eventually comer around to buy it, if you market it as a 'sportwagon' or come up with some other marketing ploy. Maybe Tesla could get away with it, even if other domestic manufacturers can't.

I have always liked the wagon format myself. They tend to be lower, lighter and sleeker than SUVs, while still having much of the utility. I have never understood the attraction of the high, boxy SUV style and have stood dumbfounded as it as utterly taken over in the past 25 years. I realize that I am very much in the minority on these points.

Don’t get me wrong, I love a good wagon. Had a WRX wagon, A4 Avant, and still drool over an RS6 Avant any time I see one.

But you and me are a rare breed here in ‘Murica.

And as I get older and want a more comfortable car, something smaller than a Model 3 is a non-starter for me these days, for better or worse.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Here is a comparison with the 2016 Hyunday Ioniq, the 2017 Tesla Model 3, and the 2023 Toyota Prius, wich all have similar height.

You’re comparing an EV to some very unusual and particularly ugly gas vehicles as if a huge battery wouldn’t affect the styling.

Clearly you prefer a “crossover” style and that’s fine. The point is that Tesla didn’t forget to include a hatch, omit it to save money, or preclude it with the glass roof. They chose to pursue sedan styling and high efficiency *instead* of a hatchback.

 

[Bouba]

Let’s forget about the Model 2....because I want to talk about the Model 1...over here on the Continent, the new Fiat 500 is hugely popular, stylish, cute and retro. I have driven one here on the Mediterranean coast (a courtesy car when my Model 3 was in the shop)...and they drive really nice, nippy and so easy on our narrow streets and even narrower parking places. Of course Fiat has already electrified it. But there definitely is a market for tiny cars here

 

[Whatstreet]

Let’s forget about the Model 2....because I want to talk about the Model 1...over here on the Continent, the new Fiat 500 is hugely popular, stylish, cute and retro. I have driven one here on the Mediterranean coast (a courtesy car when my Model 3 was in the shop)...and they drive really nice, nippy and so easy on our narrow streets and even narrower parking places. Of course Fiat has already electrified it. But there definitely is a market for tiny cars here

I agree there is a market and perhaps a necessity for tiny cars in Europe, but not so much in the USA. The Smart is dangerous on freeways, and they were targets for pranksters who like to tip them over with their bare hands.

 

[Candleflame]

I doubt there’s any appreciable market in the US for a smaller than Model 3 EV. It might sell great in the rest of the world, but doubt it will be a profitable sell here. I’d be surprised if they even bother importing it and they certainly won’t build it here (presuming it does exist at some point).

I mean the USA has this reputation for oversized cars and gluttony but when I see videos of New York there seems to be plenty of tiny hatchbacks - but maybe the east coast capitals are an exception due to the high population density?

I live in Australia now and the Model 3 seems like a tiny car until I saw one in Germany and was like "wtf huge".

 

[Candleflame]

I don't see the need to have a glass roof:
- It is always covered with a sunsade because of the heat from the sun.
- The front glass above the driver cracked twice because of some gravel, I have to pay twice the $500 deductable.
- The rear glass was broken at the body when when replacing my rear quarter panel.

5. So with a metal roof then you can install a crossbar any where you want and as many crossbar as you want.

Explain now to me how the Kia/Hyundai, the Volvo/Polestar, and even the new Prius
with similar size and shape than the Model 3 can have a hatchback?

The sedan body of the 3 never made sense especially since with the Model S gave proof they know how to build a sick liftback (unlike lets say BMW).

 

[ucmndd]

I mean the USA has this reputation for oversized cars and gluttony but when I see videos of New York there seems to be plenty of tiny hatchbacks - but maybe the east coast capitals are an exception due to the high population density?

I dunno, there might be relatively more, but even there I don’t know who’s driving them or WHAT they’re driving.

VW discontinued the plain Golf here in 2021. You can still buy a GTI or Golf R, but they’re selling in tiny numbers (7,800 nation wide in 2022). This would be the only model I’d seriously consider - unless I’m missing something pretty much every other tiny hatch still available here is a bottom-rung Hyundai/Kia/Nissan shitbox that few would voluntarily drive.