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I probably have a unique place in this discussion because I took delivery of my R1T on 8/9 and can say that it is almost flawless. Lifetime 2.54mi/KWh with almost 12,000 miles on the meter. CCS charging can be a little bit of a hassle since the infrastructure is still catching up but I can go 20%-80% in about the time it takes to walk inside, use the bathroom, get a coffee or something and walk back. I *ALSO* have a MY 4680 on order with VIN to be delivered 2/17-3/10 to use for my longer distance runs because of the unique Supercharger network. (I cannot comment on the R1S but if you order now, you aren't getting it for 18 months.) Selling the 2019 Honda Pilot and we'll be a totally electric family.
A little side note: I wish we could standardize it to Wh/mi. It's hard to compare in my head because some cars use Wh/mi and some use mi/KWh.
I would argue that Wh/mi makes more sense, we usually get an extra sig fig and the numbers are more comprehensible but does anyone have any insight/info on why there's no standard measurement?
I would argue that Wh/mi makes more sense, we usually get an extra sig fig and the numbers are more comprehensible but does anyone have any insight/info on why there's no standard measurement?
Was the few thousand savings the main decision maker on getting the SR instead of LR even though you'll be using it on longer distances?
I have to pee every 200 miles so there’s not really much of a difference. That said, one came up in inventory and I snagged it so there’s that instant gratification thing. Somehow I’ve talked myself into thinking that as Tesla gathers more real world data on the 4680 batteries, they’ll remove some of the initial software limitations and free it up. Word on the street is that the gigacasting and structure of the battery pack itself lends rigidity to the body. And finally, word on the street also says that since this first slew of YSR are scrutinized closer on the line. Plus, I have to pee every 200 miles.
Makes sense. I haven't heard, but do the 4680s come with the Matrix headlights do you know?
Not sure .... there's just not many in the wild yet for any kind of report. Just anecdotally here and there. Perhaps mine will arrive in a few days and I'll be able to give everyone a first-hand account.
and you are one of them. =)where fragile egos are tied up to a car.
I think humans are better at multiplication than division. If you get 3.1 miles per kWh, and each one costs you 20 cents (or 3 or 54), it's more straightforward to do in the head than working with 320 or 260 Wh/miles. Also, a lot of muscle memory around miles per gallon.
At least in the US. In Europe, the liters per 100km figure seems in common use, so perhaps it really is just another matter of familiarity.
6 months ago, there was no way that Tesla would sell the CT at the specs they floated for the price they suggested. These days, not so obvious.
But...a used R1T should sell below MSRP, shouldn't it? Esp when a lot of people are still getting them on the cheaper, pre March 2022 pricing. Only in a frothy bubble should used cars be selling for over new. That was 2022.
As for Fords sitting, where, how many? Edmunds says there are 29 within 100 miles of me in San Francisco, but nearly all are "unpriced" and for Serramonte Ford, 6 of the 8 are in transit. The latter two are "call for pricing." So are these dealers just trying to extra over retail pricing? The few ones with pricing are the 3rd trim and they have prices that seem to be a 5 to 20k over msrp.
Again, virtually no one actually uses their truck to tow, and people have no qualms with the gas mileage of an Escalade or a Expedition, so it's hard to make this simple market conclusion.
jebinc
Well-Known Member
IMO Lightning sales have plateau-ed and while dealers are trying to markup they aren't getting it. Ford dealers were still marking up Mach-Es but they were sitting on unsold lots until the $7K price cuts.
EV demand overall has cratered compared to the craze back in 2022. Demand is still high but we've hit some limit. Many EVs are sitting on dealer lots here in Florida (there were no EVs on lots 3-4 months ago) with discounts now appearing. I've been tempted by an EV6 GT at $3K under MSRP.
Tesla's advantage is pricing and manufacturing but there are demand limits. We know $67K Model Ys sells slowly and the backlog basically disappeared at that price.
Now Broncos and Tellurides... they still build 120K+ a year and markups are still insane because demand is through the roof. I took delivery of my year-old Bronco order recently but for 2 months before I was trying to buy a higher trim. Dealers were asking for $10K+ and buyers were paying it. Literally a dozen I inquired about sold within a day. Argh.
Again, $80K+ vehicles are more niche-y than you think. Selling 200K/yr like the Model Y is unlikely. The awesome Genesis GV60 has been a poor seller from the start. Amazing reviews. Available at MSRP for 6+ months now. Dozens on lots. But at $69K it is a hard sell. Same story with the incredible BMW iX. I think after the pre-order R1Ts have been delivered, I'm not sure how many new buyers want an $85K R1T. Those with the means to buy an $85K+ truck probably want more features on higher trim F-150s or RAM and don't care about cost of gas.
I think your assesment of dealer gouging is a big factor in ev's sitting on lots. It feels like dealers last gasp, knowing companies are pushing for direct sales. I have no sympathy for dealers. Yesterday's pandemic vultures are tomorrow's road kill.
EV sales are still growing. January sales: 2,264 Ford Lightning's, 2,626 Mach-E's , 1110 Kia EV6's (Kia's biggest ev seller is the Niro) - both are growth numbers YOY
2022 was huge for EV sales. 19% of all new car sales were EV's in Calif. That's massive and accounts for 40% of the nation's EV market.
Obviously sales will slow with interest rates climbing and the likes of Ford and Toyota hitting recalls.
Globally, EV sales growth for Jan is still in double digits or triple digits. Overall sales is down, which says ice sales are slowing.
It will be interesting to see how fast the market changes, but ev sales are still tracking strong at the moment.
You're right, $80k market is smaller than the internet and advertising makes you think. However, the % of that market that is ev is growing. ICE at that price is shrinking. Personally, I think Rivian will succeed.
There is a huge race to catch up, and the transition is not as easy as legacy brands are playing. Teething pains at this scale can end a company.
Tesla's just winning on every level. Their streamlined manufacturing, while not delivering customer quality, does make massive profits per unit. Their in-house manufacturing, engineering, sofware and charging network are untouchable. And, they have over a decade of experience.
I can only see them becoming the #1 global carmaker in a short time.
The big Tesla issue is if they will cave in and open up the charging network to get the federal monies. US Gov is pressuring them to, but that means a massive loss to Tesla owners.
Non-exclusive, and all chargers are required to be CCS. It would basically kill the Tesla charging standard.
It would also take away a major benefit of buying a Tesla- but if legacy brands can't produce an alternative, it may not matter.
You speak of markups.. but they are mostly gone. There are dozens of EV6s here in Florida at MSRP that are sitting unsold. Same with other EVs. I've been offered Ioniq 5s, Solterras, etc. at MSRP. The only things I see having markups are the high demand cars like Broncos, Tellurides, Sequoias, etc. EVs are not high demand
As for Mach-E... your numbers are misleading because sales have declined month over month (Nov/Dec to Jan 2023). Comparing to Jane 2022 is false because Ford had major production issues back in early 2022 and recalls.
And who cares about global markets... you are talking about non-US markets with large EV incentives that skew sales to EV. If no incentives exist... my guess is PHEVs would rule.
You spoke of markups.You speak of markups.. but they are mostly gone. There are dozens of EV6s here in Florida at MSRP that are sitting unsold. Same with other EVs. I've been offered Ioniq 5s, Solterras, etc. at MSRP. The only things I see having markups are the high demand cars like Broncos, Tellurides, Sequoias, etc. EVs are not high demand
As for Mach-E... your numbers are misleading because sales have declined month over month (Nov/Dec to Jan 2023). Comparing to Jane 2022 is false because Ford had major production issues back in early 2022 and recalls.
And who cares about global markets... you are talking about non-US markets with large EV incentives that skew sales to EV. If no incentives exist... my guess is PHEVs would rule.
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I agree that markups hurt sales.
You are right about the declining figures on Ford sales. EV sales, however, are growing. Maybe that will change in the next quarter's reports but for now it's on the up.
Non-US markets incentives skew sales? US also has incentives at the state and federal level.
Germany, where the incentives comparable or are less than here, had a 900% growth in Tesla sales for Jan.
Toyota hopes you're right about PHEV sales...
gx9901
Active Member
Just curious. If the GV60 is a poor seller, why are they still limiting sales of it to 9 states so far? On their website it says it's due to extremely limited availability. If they are sitting on lots say in California, wouldn't it be in their best interest to sell those in another state?
well, I spoke too soon
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- Tesla, for the first time, will open a portion of its U.S. Supercharger and Destination Charger network to non-Tesla EVs, making at least 7,500 chargers available for all EVs by the end of 2024. The open chargers will be distributed across the United States. They will include at least 3,500 new and existing 250 kW Superchargers along highway corridors to expand freedom of travel for all EVs, and Level 2 Destination Charging at locations like hotels and restaurants in urban and rural locations. All EV drivers will be able to access these stations using the Tesla app or website. Additionally, Tesla will more than double its full nationwide network of Superchargers, manufactured in Buffalo, New York.
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