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Road-rager's attorney mentions regenerative braking during case

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by yobigd20, Jan 21, 2016.

  1. Max*

    Max* Charging

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    I'll simplify it for you
    1. I never said that
    B. I never said anything about jails
    III. I never used any definitive terms in regards to peoples innocence or guiltiness

    What I did say, in case it was hard to understand, was that the justice system is flawed. If trails find you innocent, that does not mean that you are. If trials find you guilty that does not mean that you're guilty either. If you take a plea deal to a guilty charge, again that does not mean that you're guilty.


    I have no idea what happened in this case. The driver might be innocent. Or he might be guilty. I don't really care. But assuming that he's guilty JUST because he took a plea deal is a misinformed conclusion.


    Thanks for playing.
     
  2. David99

    David99 Active Member

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    I agree a slight deceleration should not trigger the brake lights. We are used to that because ICE engine braking is very miles with automatic transmissions. I think Tesla actually did a great job adjusting the brake lights to mimic this.

    Tesla has set the brake light to come on only when the regen is strong. The brake lights do not come on when you regen just moderately. In fact, I tried it a few times, the brake lights only come on when you pretty much let go of the accelerator. Even a slight pressure on the pedal is enough to make the brake lights no come on yet you still have very decent regeneration.
     
  3. WMAC

    WMAC Member

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    He drove away from the scene of a vehicle crash with injury - it is a felony of which he is guilty.
     
  4. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Actually he's not guilty of that in this case because of the plea bargain. I think that was the point being mentioned. You can be judged "innocent" of something you are guilty of and judged "guilty" of something you are innocent of.
     
  5. WMAC

    WMAC Member

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    He's guilty of leaving the scene of a vehicle crash with injury, but, he took the misdemeanor plea to get out of being charged with the misdemeanor reckless driving AND felony hit and run charges. This driver got off easy because he had a good lawyer.
     
  6. Nikxice

    Nikxice Member

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    There's no way for us to know exactly what set off the initial chain of events. It's unfortunate, but apparently the horn was the trigger. When I was growing up in the sixties, a friendly toot toot from a car horn was usually perceived as a safety, hello gesture. But, boy oh boy, not in the world we live in today. Sure, using your horn to admonish someone who has cut you off is illegal. But in this case we're only guessing about the circumstances that initiated the cyclist flipping off the woman driver. Consider a different scenario. If the woman was attempting a legal pass and the cyclist drifted into her lane, for safety reasons she could then have legally sounded her horn. So, although she might not have been the initial aggressor, that possibility would have no bearing on the eventual outcome.

    Just wanted to take a pass at how we all see the world from different angles, influenced by different life experiences.
     
  7. WMAC

    WMAC Member

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    Since we're sharing different life experiences, here are some of mine. I'm a driver, too. I encounter cyclists and pedestrians and have no problem passing safely. I do not get upset when I approach them every so often, just as I do not get upset when I approach a tractor driving down the road, or have to stop at a stop sign or a stop light when other traffic wants to pass. I recognize that I'm no more important than anyone else and I sometimes have to wait for others.

    When I'm on my bike, I (very rarely) get a "toot, toot, hey I'm passing" type of honk, but, when I do, it is usually reciprocated with a wave and a smile. No reasonable person would flip someone off for that. Could that have been the case? Maybe. Likely? No. Drivers (very) often lay on their horns as they pass very closely to give a very clear sign of their disdain and disapproval of me on "their" road. Here are some incidents I've encountered while riding my bike, alone, in a straight line, as far to the right as possible, at about 15-20 mph, on a flat road - with no oncoming traffic and plenty of room to pass safely. I've had people half-pass and then swerve into me to try to run me off the road; pass and slow down to 10 mph and squirt wiper fluid, slow down and yell at me to get off the road. I had one guy in a truck approaching from the opposite direction, IN THE OTHER LANE, slow down and veer into my lane and pretend to attempt to hit me head-on. When you include the minor hills we have in Tennessee, people lose their minds if they have to slow down for 30 seconds to wait to pass safely. Honking, giving the middle finger, yelling and throwing objects are common assaults against cyclists around here. This kind of intimidation with a vehicle is akin to pulling a gun on someone and telling them to get out of town because they aren't welcome in these parts. Drivers constantly try to bully and intimidate cyclists to get them to stop riding on the road. And it has been working. Lots of my friends no longer feel safe on the roads. When they do ride, they rode in very large packs - making the delays for drivers even worse. A friend was hit by a truck towing a trailer who swerved into the pack and slung him into a telephone pole, almost killing him. His penalty was a minor traffic citation. Congratulations to everyone who has used their vehicle to threaten someone's life, you have likely won a battle against a bicyclist.

    Some drivers are downright dangerous - making life threatening passes due to aggressiveness or ignorance. You want to know why cyclists ride in the middle of the road? Because riding all the way to the right encourages unsafe, in-lane, passing. Some roads are 12 feet wide, that's 144 inches. Most are 11' wide. Subtract the mandatory 36" from the cyclist and another 24" for shoulder width and you're left with 76". Car width is typically between 80" and 96", so unless your left tire straddling the center line into the left lane (yes, this is a perfectly legal maneuver - even when presented with a double yellow line), you are passing too closely. I used to ride far to the right of the lane, often on the white line. Cars and trucks constantly buzzed me, giving me less than 36" between 4,000 lbs of steel and my shoulder - without slowing down. All those incidents I mentioned occurred when I was riding alone with zero provocation, in a way that drivers claim they want me to ride.

    I've learned that riding like that is LESS safe than riding the way everyone complains about. My wheels are in the same place in a lane that a car puts it's right wheel in the lane. I stick out my left arm as a car approaches. I wave them down if I see they are approaching too fast. You know what? Cars more often pass properly and safely when I ride like that. If drivers were more courteous, recognized bicycles as legitimate users of the road, stopped honking and passed safely, cyclists wouldn't be so quick to pull out a middle finger. I've also been riding with a camera and send video footage (of aggressive drivers who do not like my particular riding style) to the Sheriff or Chief of wherever the incident took place. They send Deputies and Officers to the residence of the offending drivers to let them know about the three foot law and potential prosecution for reckless driving. I encourage you to do the same with a dash cam. Feel free to PM me any footage you get of cyclists breaking any laws. I've encouraged many people to do this over the past year and I've yet to receive a clip.

    As for drifting into "her lane," the cyclist would have had to have drifted into the lane across the center dividing line as the full right lane rightfully belonged to the bicyclists in front of her. Remember, cyclists have the right to swerve to avoid hazards in the road and may use the full lane. Is it probable that this cyclist swerved to avoid a hazard and drifted into her? Probably not as that likely would have been mentioned as the reason she honked.

    Look at this thread and look at the comments from the original article. Contrary to more than 100 years of transportation law, many people feel bicyclists do not belong on the road. They feel bicycles are just entitled people playing in the streets and holding them up from getting real business done. Well, roads have always been a public good paid for by the general tax funds, like parks and schools. I have just as much right to lawfully operate my bicycle on the road as any motor vehicle. You often use the roads for recreational purposes as well. Your use of the road is not more important than mine simply because of the vehicle you choose to use. If I incur a minor delay upon you, it is no different than my having to stop at a stop sign to let you cross an intersection.

    Here I am defending cyclists, who were operating their bicycles in a legal fashion, against some strangers who have sided with a man who caused a crash and then drove off. The driver is clearly at fault and some of you are trying to figure out a way to blame the cyclists. Do you not see how absurd this has become?
     
  8. LetsGoFast

    LetsGoFast Active Member

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    FWIW, no one is likely to believe that people take pleas all the time who are innocent than I. I suspect that I could tell a lot more horrifying tales about the criminal justice system than most people. But the fact is that the terms of the plea almost always reflect the perceived likelihood of conviction on the merits. Anyone familiar with the system can look at a deal and form a pretty quick impression of the relative strengths of the case.

    As a point of comparison (admittedly in a completely different jurisdiction) check this plea from my news feed today. This guy was drunk, hit 18 different cars and fled the scene. He got 12 months probation (compared to 2 years), was fined $500 (compared to $4,134) and pled no contest (compared to a guilty plea). This simply is not a case of someone getting such a sweet plea bargain that they would be foolish to try the case. Furthermore, his own attorney admitted that it was an intentional act "He had a temporary emotional lapse but he had no intention of hurting anybody." It would be borderline malpractice to admit this unless there was either overwhelming proof or (much more likely) his client had already admitted the same on the record.

    The fact that he pled guilty in and of itself doesn't guarantee he is guilty. The preponderance of the evidence does, in my opinion.
     
  9. No2DinosaurFuel

    No2DinosaurFuel Active Member

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    OK for one I am glad most of the people have responded for me so I wont comment on the tesla's driver guilty or not guilty part. The criminal part has been settled by the courts for all I care. In fact, I think the wife should be charged a separate charge for breaking the law by honking in non-emergency situation. Again she was the one that started this chain of events. On another note even if the bicyclist flipped off the wife, the bicyclist is not in the wrong. Donald Trump antagonized mexicans, women, and others, yet it doesn't give them the right to go and physically beat the heck out of him. Sure they can sue him and such, but not physically hurt him which this guy did. This is america, Free speech people! Whether the driver intentional want to hurt the guy or not, only the driver can honestly answer that.

    Let's get back to the point of this thread how the regen without driver depressing the brake pedal can cause this "accident."

    I for one do NOT believe so. This guy's lawyers is lying (not surprised, he is a lawyer) for sure and might be trying to defame Tesla or EV in general which I think is really short sighted. Sure it helps this one guy, but now it will hurt the millions of other EV drivers. I think he should've left that part out of it. Take the plea without bringing Tesla into the loop. Regen is progressive. Sure it might come on fast to slow the car down, but I know for sure, the regen power can climb slightly higher before the real brakes kicks in. Therefore, if this guy just lifted his foot of the accelerator pedal, there is no way the car can stop fast enough that the bicyclist can't stop in time. I mean how fast was the bicyclist going to prevent him and his 20lbs bike from braking fast enough to avoid the crash?
     
  10. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    #90 ecarfan, Jan 27, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2016
    Agreed. Tesla has done a good job of adjusting just how much regen is needed to make the brake lights come on.
    This has been discussed extensively many times on TMC. The brake lights do not come on unless you almost completely release pressure on the accelerator pedal, which will of course cause the car to slow down, just like when you apply light pressure to the brake pedal. The brake lights come on with even slight pressure on the brake pedal. So all that makes sense.
    This is easy to determine even without watching for the difficult to see brake lights lighting up on the "toy car" in the center of the drivers display. Take a short drive at night on a dark street with the rear view camera image showing at the top of the center display. You can easily see -- on a dark road -- when the brake lights come on. They do not come on when you partially back off on the accelerator pedal.
     
  11. WMAC

    WMAC Member

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    The only way I see regen braking being a factor in a scenario where the guy wasn't intending to aggrevate the cyclists and did not act with malice is: wife honked, wife passed, husband got offended, passed immediately after, shouldn't have passed, had to cut in to avoid oncoming traffic, left less than five feet between his bumper and cyclists, let all the way off accelerator so as not to hit wife in front of him, caused bicyclist to hit him, realized he made a big mistake, felt bad, but, drove off anyway because he didn't view the bicycle as a vehicle or didn't view the incident as a "real" hit and run.

    It's only speculation on my part, but, is the only excusable and plausible scenario in this case if it occurred as described by the attorney.
     
  12. McRat

    McRat Well-Known Member

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    #92 McRat, Jan 27, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2016
    Wow. You've never had a Reckless have you? It's not a speeding ticket. It's 2 points, just like drunk driving, big fine, wicked high insurance rates for years. The inability to get any jobs that require you to drive a company vehicle. THEN the DMV gets to punish you also. We have Double Jeopardy in California. You get a Court Sentence, then a separate DMV sentence, which is often a suspension.

    I made the mistake of driving 80 mph on the freeway back when the national law was 55 (that same freeway is 70 today). At 25 mph over the limit, it was considered a Reckless at the time. Handcuffed, towed, booked, $500 fine plus court costs, 6 month license suspension (that "drive to work only" stuff is an urban myth, it's rarely allowed), and nearly impossible to get insurance. This was when new cars started at about $4000. $1000 insurance. So in today's pricing the ticket was about $3000 including court costs, and insurance was $3000 a year.

    Only an idiot would plead guilty to one when he had done nothing wrong. It's not a slap on the wrist. His lawyer knows this. I used a public defender since I was making $5/hr at the time (about double the minimum wage?), I don't think Tesla owners use public defenders normally.

    If the Prosecutor or Judge believed the defense version, he would have had an easy acquittal. Even today, the courts do have a bit of prejudice against 2 wheeler incidents. People run over motorcycles and get simple 1 point tickets, Failure to Yield, or no ticket at all. He would probably would have gotten just FTY that if his story sounded plausible. A car turned left in front me while I was riding an MC. No ticket was issued to the driver because the PD considered it a simple accident, and normal driving.

    Road Rage is a serious issue nationally, and especially in California. It needs to be treated as such, yet only when car/car, alcohol, or firearms are involved is it taken seriously. Running over bicycles, pedestrians, and motorcycles is considered a lesser offense in real life regardless of CVC statutes.
     
  13. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Seems like not much compared to a hit and run, which can be a felony and has far higher jail-time and penalty limits. So I don't think he necessarily got the short end of the stick.
     
  14. McRat

    McRat Well-Known Member

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    He got a smoking deal. Probably first offense, good lawyer, and was repentant to the judge.

    That is not unusual when plea bargaining and having a good lawyer when you are a first offender. Lots of felonies get dropped to misdemeanors on a guilty plea unless the law does not permit it (guns, etc). Saves the time and expense of trial, and the offender gets a record.

    His real problems will occur if the injured bicyclist files in civil court. With a standing conviction in the incident, he's probably going to settle.
     
  15. CHG-ON

    CHG-ON Still in love after all these miles

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    Now that's funny! I love it. Perfect for those who won't turn off their highs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    stevezzzz: "Why Tesla chose to implement this difference is beyond me. It's been that way since the beginning of TACC and hasn't changed through any of the subsequent firmware releases. And it's caused me to have to use my brakes more often than I ever did in the Sig S because of the modal differences in regen onset ramp times."

    There were many complaints about abrupt regen when disengaging the original cruise.
     
  16. stevezzzz

    stevezzzz R;SigS;P85D;SigX;S90D;XP100D;3LR

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    That's interesting; am I the only one complaining about the modal behavior of the current implementation for TACC-equipped cars? And if it was a response by Tesla to user complaints, why didn't they change the behavior of older, non-TACC cars with one of the firmware updates?
     
  17. David29

    David29 Supporting Member

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    #97 David29, Feb 1, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016
    My difficulty with all this is that I have not been able to accurately discern when my brake lights come on during regen braking, using the "cartoon" in the dash. Maybe my eyes are not good enough (although I did just get a new eyeglass Rx so I should be good), or maybe my screen brightness is not optimal, but I can't see the difference between brakes on and off with any regularity. But I also do not like having to peer at the cartoon when I am decelerating. Presumably I am decelerating for a good reason and that reason is outside the car and I should be looking there. So I do. (And as someone else noted above, it may be harder to see the brake light in the display with red cars like mine.)
     
  18. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Look in the rear view camera at night and you'll see how they work. It's really close to what you'd see in an all friction brake car.
     
  19. Max*

    Max* Charging

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    It's very hard to tell from the regular brake lights. Look at the strip light by the roof, you can easily tell in the cartoon when it's on or off
     
  20. Nikxice

    Nikxice Member

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    When AP was first released I was pleased that we finally had a virtual car that depicted brake lights during heavy regen. After months of interaction, I have to admit, it is difficult to use. Also, trying to view this area of the dash and make a judgement as to whether your brake lights are on or not, is akin to a distraction. During rapid deceleration, the one area you don't want to focus on is the instrument cluster. Giving a driver regen feedback would work best if it could be observed in ones peripheral vision. For non-AP cars like mine, a decent location would be above the digital speedometer. There is a white line that separates the analog speedometer on the left and the power meter on the right. Turn that line red when the brake lights are on. I'm sure there is a suitable location somewhere up top for AP cars too.
     

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