[Rumor] Significant Engineering Issues with Model 3

[Zaphod]

Isn't the 48A charger the standard for the S and X anyways? The higher 72A I thought was only included in the 100kwh versions.

 

[ohmman]

Really I am not sure why folks are so against having a bigger onboard AC charger if possible. All it adds are possibilities for destination charging, especially in places where SuperCharging isn't available (looking at you Outer Banks).

It also reduces potential congestion at destination charging locations. I certainly do not understand any desire for a smaller charger than is readily available.

 

[gregincal]

Isn't the 48A charger the standard for the S and X anyways? The higher 72A I thought was only included in the 100kwh versions.

Exactly. I'm not sure what all the argument was about over the last couple pages. The 75kWh Model S and the 75kWh Model X both come with a 48 amp charger. Why would anybody expect a 75kWh Model 3 (much less a smaller battery version) to come with anything more?

 

[Zaphod]

Exactly. I'm not sure what all the argument was about over the last couple pages. The 75kWh Model S and the 75kWh Model X both come with a 48 amp charger. Why would anybody expect a 75kWh Model 3 (much less a smaller battery version) to come with anything more?

Glad I wasn't the only one scratching their head trying to figure out the big "controversy" here.

 

[alseTrick]

Isn't this the same "source" that said 1000s of Model 3s would be produced by this Friday?

I thought that was Trevor Page from "model 3 owners club".

 

[AnxietyRanger]

You are starting to resort to strawman arguments and putting words in my mouth.

The 74/75 kWh reference comes from other sources. The notion that the larger battery pack will be available from the beginning is from Trevor Page who heard it from a source. This is why I qualified them as rumors, what I actually think is irrelevant.

As for a 75 kWh Model 3 having a greater range than a 75 kWh Model S. This is basic physics.

I think there are three angles to the "70-75 kWh Model 3" debate, outside of assessing rumor reliability... just thinking the logic through here:

1) Will there be one or two batteries at launch? There is logic and rumor to support both, I guess. However - bear with me - I think this may actually be a bit irrelevant regarding the 70-75 kWh Model 3 because...

2) Who says Tesla can't launch with the bigger battery, the 70-75 kWh? They might easily see sense in starting Model 3 sales with the larger battery to support a higher premium and a ramping product where base margins are bound to be thin or negative at start. Either as the only battery or a choice of two.

3) Nothing is stopping Tesla from shipping 75 kWh Model S/X with a larger (say, 85 kWh), software limited battery and then offering that as a software update to existing buyers/delivery takers once the Model 3 announcement is made... In fact, 85 kWh Model S 75D's have been shipping in recent times (though it may of course also be just ridding of old stock).

Thus, if Tesla feels a 70-75 kWh Model 3 is needed (to make margin on Model 3) and is threatening Model S base model sales, say because a big battery Model 3 has too much range compared to Model S (and Model S is needed to keep the business running overall with limited Model 3 ramp), launching with a Model 3 big battery (only or as a choice of two) and upgrading the base Model S/X to a bigger battery is very plausible.

I will leave judgement and likelihood on the rumors to others that have paid more close attention, but just spelling out a logic that I think allows for many alternative scenarios to this. This is IMO definitely not as simple as "Model 3 launches with small battery, end of story" at this stage. Other alternatives are still in play, though uncertain obviously.

And we know Tesla isn't shy about changing everything about every product all the time, so just because 75 kWh has gotten changes recently does not mean more aren't coming. In fact, history might even suggest because 75 kWh has been the target of changes, it could mean more are coming...

 

[wdolson]

I think there are three angles to the "70-75 kWh Model 3" debate, outside of assessing rumor reliability... just thinking the logic through here:

1) Will there be one or two batteries at launch? There is logic and rumor to support both, I guess. However - bear with me - I think this may actually be a bit irrelevant regarding the 70-75 kWh Model 3 because...

2) Who says Tesla can't launch with the bigger battery, the 70-75 kWh? They might easily see sense in starting Model 3 sales with the larger battery to support a higher premium and a ramping product where base margins are bound to be thin or negative at start. Either as the only battery or a choice of two.

3) Nothing is stopping Tesla from shipping 75 kWh Model S/X with a larger (say, 85 kWh), software limited battery and then offering that as a software update to existing buyers/delivery takers once the Model 3 announcement is made... In fact, 85 kWh Model S 75D's have been shipping in recent times (though it may of course also be just ridding of old stock).

Thus, if Tesla feels a 70-75 kWh Model 3 is needed (to make margin on Model 3) and is threatening Model S base model sales, say because a big battery Model 3 has too much range compared to Model S (and Model S is needed to keep the business running overall with limited Model 3 ramp), launching with a Model 3 big battery (only or as a choice of two) and upgrading the base Model S/X to a bigger battery is very plausible.

I will leave judgement and likelihood on the rumors to others that have paid more close attention, but just spelling out a logic that I think allows for many alternative scenarios to this. This is IMO definitely not as simple as "Model 3 launches with small battery, end of story" at this stage. Other alternatives are still in play, though uncertain obviously.

And we know Tesla isn't shy about changing everything about every product all the time, so just because 75 kWh has gotten changes recently does not mean more aren't coming. In fact, history might even suggest because 75 kWh has been the target of changes, it could mean more are coming...

It's quite possible the S/X 75s being made now have a larger battery, but I think the labels people have been showing are a red herring. Tesla might be shipping with a false label right now to throw off the sleuths who are looking. I expect the announcement of the new battery capacity soon after the last of the old 90s are sold off. They are aggressively selling off the 90s at discounts rarely seen before. It's obvious they want them gone ASAP.

Tesla did release the Model S and X initially with the large battery and fully loaded, but Elon has indicated the initial Model 3s are going to be fairly basic which also implies the batteries may be the smaller version.

 

[TexasEV]

Tesla did release the Model S and X initially with the large battery and fully loaded, but Elon has indicated the initial Model 3s are going to be fairly basic which also implies the batteries may be the smaller version.

Basic has nothing to do with battery size. It's about not doing AWD or performance versions or multiple options that could impact production. It's no more complex to build a car with one battery size that's a larger battery rather than a smaller battery.

 

[Grendal]

It's quite possible the S/X 75s being made now have a larger battery, but I think the labels people have been showing are a red herring. Tesla might be shipping with a false label right now to throw off the sleuths who are looking. I expect the announcement of the new battery capacity soon after the last of the old 90s are sold off. They are aggressively selling off the 90s at discounts rarely seen before. It's obvious they want them gone ASAP.

Tesla did release the Model S and X initially with the large battery and fully loaded, but Elon has indicated the initial Model 3s are going to be fairly basic which also implies the batteries may be the smaller version.

I don't even think it is legal for Tesla to have a false label where the company is actively trying to deceive the customer. The exception would be that the battery label is internal to Tesla and not official. However, I'm pretty sure that label is official and government regulated in some way.

I look forward to someone correcting me if I am incorrect about this.

 

[Grendal]

Basic has nothing to do with battery size. It's about not doing AWD or performance versions or multiple options that could impact production. It's no more complex to build a car with one battery size that's a larger battery rather than a smaller battery.

Especially so in the case of Tesla. You just add a couple extra cell modules that are plug-n-play in the overall battery pack. The exception would be that there is some software additions for the extra cells needed that Tesla has neglected to focus on in the time crunch. That would really surprise me.

I fully expect that Tesla will offer the larger battery pack as a choice immediately on Friday. It is the easiest way for them to make more money and gain better profit margins immediately. The other major option to offer is autopilot/autonomy as an immediate option but not deliver on it until it is available later.

 

[Stanley S.]

This thread has deviated from the original post of rumored design issues with the Model 3.

I can confirm that the issue(s) existed then and that at least one still exists today. There have been failures of critical components undergoing accelerated life testing as well as in the vehicle. I can confirm an issue with the battery cooling system. Failure of a particular component will cause the cooling system to fail (not acceptable). Back in April Tesla changed the physical form factor of this component. Subsequent testing has revealed a failure mode that is still being analyzed.

Tesla is not overly concerned with this failure (?) because they apparently have other issues with higher priority! I do not have direct knowledge of these issues so, no details.

Cannot reveal more. NDA's and all that.

 

[JeffK]

This thread has deviated from the original post of rumored design issues with the Model 3.

I can confirm that the issue(s) existed then and that at least one still exists today. There have been failures of critical components undergoing accelerated life testing as well as in the vehicle. I can confirm an issue with the battery cooling system. Failure of a particular component will cause the cooling system to fail (not acceptable). Back in April Tesla changed the physical form factor of this component. Subsequent testing has revealed a failure mode that is still being analyzed.

Tesla is not overly concerned with this failure (?) because they apparently have other issues with higher priority! I do not have direct knowledge of these issues so, no details.

Cannot reveal more. NDA's and all that.

You forgot to add a disclaimer that you short TSLA

 

[ModelNforNerd]

This thread has deviated from the original post of rumored design issues with the Model 3.

I can confirm that the issue(s) existed then and that at least one still exists today. There have been failures of critical components undergoing accelerated life testing as well as in the vehicle. I can confirm an issue with the battery cooling system. Failure of a particular component will cause the cooling system to fail (not acceptable). Back in April Tesla changed the physical form factor of this component. Subsequent testing has revealed a failure mode that is still being analyzed.

Tesla is not overly concerned with this failure (?) because they apparently have other issues with higher priority! I do not have direct knowledge of these issues so, no details.

Cannot reveal more. NDA's and all that.

TL;DR


"I know some stuff, from people I know.....but I can't tell you."

 

[Stanley S.]

Exactly the reaction I expected here.

You fools believe whatever you want to believe. I know what I KNOW - and part of that knowledge includes seeing, smelling and holding in my hands the toasted PCB's employed in this component. If I didn't value my career, I'd prove it with pretty pictures.

Now, whether Tesla's obvious tactic of making employees the guinea pigs while this, and other issues are resolved keeps it out of the public discussion remains to be seen.

And, I am neither short nor long Telsa. Mixed feelings both ways.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Exactly the reaction I expected here.

You fools believe whatever you want to believe. I know what I KNOW - and part of that knowledge includes seeing, smelling and holding in my hands the toasted PCB's employed in this component. If I didn't value my career, I'd prove it with pretty pictures.

Now, whether Tesla's obvious tactic of making employees the guinea pigs while this, and other issues are resolved keeps it out of the public discussion remains to be seen.

And, I am neither short nor long Telsa. Mixed feelings both ways.

If you valued your career over the "attention", you probably wouldn't have mentioned it at all.

Honestly, if you wanted to leak the information somewhere, wouldn't a media outlet or some stupid investment website have been a better place.

If you posted something on a forum, knowing you would get the reaction you got, that's universally categorized as "trolling" these days.

 

[JeffK]

Exactly the reaction I expected here.

You fools believe whatever you want to believe. I know what I KNOW - and part of that knowledge includes seeing, smelling and holding in my hands the toasted PCB's employed in this component. If I didn't value my career, I'd prove it with pretty pictures.

Now, whether Tesla's obvious tactic of making employees the guinea pigs while this, and other issues are resolved keeps it out of the public discussion remains to be seen.

And, I am neither short nor long Telsa. Mixed feelings both ways.

Why not tell us the exact components?

 

[erthquake]

Exactly the reaction I expected here.

You fools believe whatever you want to believe. I know what I KNOW - and part of that knowledge includes seeing, smelling and holding in my hands the toasted PCB's employed in this component. If I didn't value my career, I'd prove it with pretty pictures.

Now, whether Tesla's obvious tactic of making employees the guinea pigs while this, and other issues are resolved keeps it out of the public discussion remains to be seen.

And, I am neither short nor long Telsa. Mixed feelings both ways.

If what you say is true, this could easily be traced back to the supplier you work for. There can't be more than a handful of you working on that component. You could all be fired, or you'll get ratted out. Big risk to take on your part.

The trollish part is that you've chosen today to create an account and post, of all days. It's pretty transparent, really.

 

[WileyTheMan]

TL;DR


"I know some stuff, from people I know.....but I can't tell you."

Yeah you can't even trust "rumors" from Tesla employees. My brother-in-law worked in Tesla engineering and he was adamant that the Model 3 wasn't going to be seen until 2019, and was not going to be able to hit $35k.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Why not tell us the exact components?

He was very dramatic in his description of the PCBs. I hope he can get a therapy dog to overcome the trauma.

 

[LargeHamCollider]

Exactly the reaction I expected here.

You fools believe whatever you want to believe. I know what I KNOW - and part of that knowledge includes seeing, smelling and holding in my hands the toasted PCB's employed in this component. If I didn't value my career, I'd prove it with pretty pictures.

Now, whether Tesla's obvious tactic of making employees the guinea pigs while this, and other issues are resolved keeps it out of the public discussion remains to be seen.

And, I am neither short nor long Telsa. Mixed feelings both ways.

Hilarious! this is a buy signal if I've ever seen one.

Personally I'm not worried about design issues, those are easy. I could be convinced to worry about production issues though so next time you log in with a new username maybe focus your FUD there.