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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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What was the quote? Democracy is the worst form of government, except when compared to the others. Or words like that


No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time ..

It was in a speech criticizing the Atlee Labour government's Parliament Act, which reduced the delay of a House of Lords veto from 2 years to 1 year, allowing more bills to be introduced and passed on the 3rd reading within a single 5-year electoral term. avoiding them dying with a change of governing party.
 
Regardless of who Galeev is – he is not some modern male variant of the Oracle of Delphi! He can not see the future any more than anyone else. He could be right. But he could also be wrong.

He's laid out some possible scenarios for what's going to happen in Russia: Putin politically survives the war and becomes Saddam Hussein after Gulf War I, they change dictators and mostly the same, or the country balkanizes. But most of what he has to say is about Russian culture and why Russia is the way it is. He makes a stromg case that a liberal democracy is not happening any time soon in Russia and he explains why.

IMO you place way, way, way too much emphasis on this stuff! This was more than 500 years ago for crying out loud!...

Those who don't learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Your own country is just emerging from 200 years of staunch neutrality that started when your country lost a bloody war of attrition with Russia in the 1740s. My ancestors left Sweden around 80 years later because of the economic hardship the country was still suffering from the war.

So in your opinion – what is better than Democracy?

Also: Keep in mind that the US variant of democracy seems like total crap to someone living in Sweden. You do not have proportionately representative elections. And your system is rigged so elections can still be won with a minority of the vote whereas the one who got the majority of the popular vote is declared to have lost(!) (aka the electoral system)... As a result you only really have two political parties(!) That is not a whole lot better than just one... As a comparison Sweden currently has eight political parties in our only legislature and supreme decision-making body. Imagine if there was no Senate and the House had some eight political parties as a result of proportionately representative elections where every party that got more than 4% (or some such) of the popular vote had representation...

I guess there are some over-simplification in the above – but the basic arguments still stand...

I won't defend US democracy. It has a number of flaws. I will spare the moderator's wrath and avoid discussing them here.

But I'm not putting down democracy, I'm making the point that expecting a population who only has one bad decade's experience with democracy to suddenly embrace it. This is also a population that have been told for 100 years that democracy is the root of all evil.

There are people in Russia with experience of Europe and other places, but they are a relatively small minority. 90% of Russians have never left the country. Something not that unusual in large countries, but very true among Russians.

Coal is ubiquitous as a vital form of energy production across the globe. That industry has been dead for 5 years.

5 years from now, oil & gas profits will be so low for Russia that the oligarchs are likely to just flee to their chateau's never to be seen again.

In the wake of their yachts will likely be a couple decades of chaos.

Coal started it's decline in the early 1920s. The long slow decline of coal is a good argument for oil and gas to still be profitable for another 80 years.

Ukrainian troops took back 4 villages in the south from Russian occupation, military source tells CNN

From CNN's Olga Konovalova and Bex Wright

Ukrainian troops have taken four villages back from Russian occupation in the south near the city of Kherson, a Ukrainian military source tells CNN. Their main “target” is Kherson, the source added.

“The main direction of the attack was on Pravdyne. We hit their infantry from the DNR (Donetsk People's Republic) and LNR (Luhansk People's Republic), and they fled. The Russian landing force fled after them," the source told CNN.
“We have now liberated four villages. Their first line of defense has been broken through in three places,” the military source said.
The source said the village names are Nova Dmytrivka, Arkhanhel's'ke, Tomyna Balka and Pravdyne.
“Many of them were killed and captured, and a lot of [Russian] military vehicles [were destroyed].”
“We'll see how it goes from here. Our target is Kherson," according to the source.


Ukrainian troops took back 4 villages in the south from Russian occupation, military source tells CNN

This may be the offensive I thought the AFU were preparing for.
 
Coal started it's decline in the early 1920s. The long slow decline of coal is a good argument for oil and gas to still be profitable for another 80 years.

Oil can be "profitable" just as coal is "profitable" today, what I need is for it to be a zombie industry like coal. There's little lobbying effort coming out of coal after 2018 or so because it's peak had passed and it's momentum was broken. There was little public appetite to defend it, so it's been able to spiral down naturally. That's what we need for oil & gas.

Once the world capitulates to peak crude demand having passed, I think you'll see that zombification process start for oil & gas. Might be this time next year if 2019's high holds as the peak, or maybe it's in 2025 when people realize 2024 was the peak. But that's about it.

My point is that the likes of Russia and Saudi Arabia are long overdue to begin their spirals. And to me their spirals will start out with the rats fleeing the ship at the first sign of a leak.
 
Those who don't learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Your own country is just emerging from 200 years of staunch neutrality that started when your country lost a bloody war of attrition with Russia in the 1740s. My ancestors left Sweden around 80 years later because of the economic hardship the country was still suffering from the war.

The wars of the 1700s were all fought by military dictators or 'kings' as they referred to themselves (or some such). And they all believed that the reason for them being 'kings' was that it was 'God's' will(!)... So in whatever 'venture' they embarked upon they thought that they were literally invincible since 'God' would protect them...

Now fast forward to WWII. I'm going to argue that the reason behind Sweden's initial neutrality in WWII was not some war of attrition with Imperial Russia some 200 years earlier. It was instead a whole lot more logical and pragmatical than that! The reason was instead that the Swedish armed forces was basically complete crap at the time! If Sweden hadn't acted the way it did, then Nazi Germany would have just taken Sweden as well – just as it took Denmark, Norway, Poland, France et. al. Sweden could have tried to defend itself – but it would likely have failed. Some 10,262 Norwegians lost their lives as a result of Norway standing up against Nazi Germany. The losses of lives in Sweden would likely have been higher – perhaps some 20,000 or even more before Sweden would have been forced to surrender anyway. So instead Sweden chose the way they chose. But again – not because of some war with Imperial Russia some 200 years earlier.

The morality of this Swedish policy during WWII can of course be debated. But I'm not going to do that here. It's kind of OT...
 
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But I'm not putting down democracy, I'm making the point that expecting a population who only has one bad decade's experience with democracy to suddenly embrace it. This is also a population that have been told for 100 years that democracy is the root of all evil.

There are people in Russia with experience of Europe and other places, but they are a relatively small minority. 90% of Russians have never left the country. Something not that unusual in large countries, but very true among Russians.
[..]
100 years? Try more than 1100? Since the very beginning of the Rurik dynasty, the russia was an absolutist state. They never, ever, experienced democracy. They got a whiff of kleptocracy laden free-market in the 1990s followed by the full fledged Putin kleptocracy since 1999. That's it; no russian ever lived in Moscow in a democratic state. Not ever!

In russia they have a caste-based structure that would put pre-British India to shame. Galeev describes it way better than me, so I'm not even gonna try... So while the on-vogue current "intelligentsia" of course experiences Europe and moves their families there ASAP on stolen money, the muzjiks are being told repeatedly, all their lives, that the Western civilization is where Shaitan lives and brimstone and thunder would punish them for even the thought of visiting and possibly be corrupted by its culture...
 
Coal started it's decline in the early 1920s. The long slow decline of coal is a good argument for oil and gas to still be profitable for another 80 years.
IMO these are slightly different cases.

Oil played a role in the decline of coal, but many uses of coal remained viable until recent times.

Oil companies make the bulk of their income from petrol and diesel sales, EVs are capable of driving a large reduction of that income in a relatively short period of time, The change in value starts when the trend is apparent.

While there are some replacements for gas, that are not as mature or absolute, gas remaining relevant after oil has substantially declined is possible. it is also possible that petrol and diesel can use used as replacements for gas.

Will someone like the Saudis ramp up oil production when it becomes apparent that market demand is declining?

When holding back supply no longer is sufficient to achieve high prices, or support spending commitments, there is a temptation to turn the tap on slowly.

More generally energy itself should become more abundant and cheaper, gas has to compete against solar, wind firmed with batteries. That should reduce the demand for gas, and the price of energy..

This is unchartered territory in terms of the pace of change and the scope of change. Not only should energy be cheaper it is more universally available, a solar panel will work just fine in most locations worldwide, when solar doesn't work, wind typically works.

In contrast, coal, oil and gas are only found in a few locations and the energy source can be owned by a small rich powerful minority, ultimately the wealth and power comes from energy. When energy is available to all, the wealth and power balance shifts.
 
100 years? Try more than 1100? Since the very beginning of the Rurik dynasty, the russia was an absolutist state. They never, ever, experienced democracy. They got a whiff of kleptocracy laden free-market in the 1990s followed by the full fledged Putin kleptocracy since 1999. That's it; no russian ever lived in Moscow in a democratic state. Not ever!

In russia they have a caste-based structure that would put pre-British India to shame. Galeev describes it way better than me, so I'm not even gonna try... So while the on-vogue current "intelligentsia" of course experiences Europe and moves their families there ASAP on stolen money, the muzjiks are being told repeatedly, all their lives, that the Western civilization is where Shaitan lives and brimstone and thunder would punish them for even the thought of visiting and possibly be corrupted by its culture...

I was just talking about how long the anti-democracy rhetoric was in circulation. Russia was one of the world's most absolutist monarchies for centuries. According to Galeev they called what they had in the 90s as democracy, and it probably the closest Russia ever got, but it was a very rough time to be Russian.

Can't answer any more right now. I need to be at the surgery center in less than 9 hours. Have to wind down now. Why are surgeons such morning people?
 
100 years? Try more than 1100? Since the very beginning of the Rurik dynasty, the russia was an absolutist state. They never, ever, experienced democracy. They got a whiff of kleptocracy laden free-market in the 1990s followed by the full fledged Putin kleptocracy since 1999. That's it; no russian ever lived in Moscow in a democratic state. Not ever!

In russia they have a caste-based structure that would put pre-British India to shame. Galeev describes it way better than me, so I'm not even gonna try... So while the on-vogue current "intelligentsia" of course experiences Europe and moves their families there ASAP on stolen money, the muzjiks are being told repeatedly, all their lives, that the Western civilization is where Shaitan lives and brimstone and thunder would punish them for even the thought of visiting and possibly be corrupted by its culture...

How relevant is anything that happened more than a 100 years ago?

Quite early on in this thread someone posted a segment from the 1420 Youtube channel. Don't ask me why, but I have actually fast-forwarded through every single one of those every time they posted a politically charged video and read the English captions. And approximately at least 80% of them have been politically charged... For what it's worth these videos paint another picture entirely... The people behind that channel has also publicly provided some data that shows that not that many who are asked actually answer their questions. To me, that shows that even more.people (quite a lot more) are against the current Military Dictatorship.

Here is that data:

Here is the relevant picture enlarged (it's a Youtube url):

And what are the "muzjiks" going to do in all of this if actual real Change starts to brew? Haven't they since long, long back been cemented to the ground by imposed apathy? My guess is that those who don't join the movement for Change will just continue 'minding their own business'.


EDIT: Added some links and made some improvements to the original post.
 
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Coal started it's decline in the early 1920s. The long slow decline of coal is a good argument for oil and gas to still be profitable for another 80 years.

I don't think that's a good basis.
Coal was largely replaced by combustion of other fuels.

But now there's a relatively rapid increase in capability and annual production capacity of energy technologies that both decrease energy use and displace fuels. That's a recipe for declining demand, leading to reduced profitability.

The relevance to this thread is that an impending increase in the ability to displace fossil fuel use left Russia with a relative small window of time in which they could try to leverage Europe's energy dependency to get it to capitulate and accept its invasion of Ukraine.
 
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I don't think that's a good basis.
Coal was largely replaced by combustion of other fuels.

But now there's a relatively rapid increase in capability and annual production capacity of energy technologies that both decrease energy use and displace fuels. That's a recipe for declining demand, leading to reduced profitability.

The relevance to this thread is that an impending increase in the ability to displace fossil fuel use left Russia with a relative small window of time in which they could try to leverage Europe's energy dependency to get it to capitulate and accept its invasion of Ukraine.
Coal's decline has only been relative. In absolute terms it has been growing all the way to peak coal consumption in 2013. What needs to be achieved in terms of the growth of renewables over the next 20-years is an unprecedented challenge. I think we (here) all agree the Ukrainians are fighting hard on our behalf for that challenge to be taken on, whereas Putin and his many fellow-travellers are fighting for fossil pollution in all its forms to continue.

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and

1661876753842.png


 
From the first thread:
CNN reports that Ukraine has liberated four towns: Tomyna Balka (1), Pravdyne (2), Nova Dmytrivka (3) and Arkhanhel's'ke (4). Also Sukhyi Stavok (5) has been reported as liberated.

I'm especially doubtful about Tomyna Balka.
Adjacent to Tomyna Balka is another Nova Dmytrivka, smaller than the village up near Arkhanhel's'ke he shows on his map. I agree it's unlikely they've taken Tomyna Balka and that tiny Nova Dmytrivka. Both are in the Pravdyne area, but almost on the coast and a good 15 km behind the accepted front line. They'd pass by other villages on the way, such as Oleksandrivka and Sofilvka, none of which have been reported as liberated.

This looks like a larger offensive than the minor ones that received so much attention previously. But it's nothing like the force needed to liberate Kherson. Ukraine doesn't seem to have anywhere near that capability yet. But they are getting better weapons and experience using them, and slow progress beats no progress every time. If they can push toward the Dnipro River the Russians may decide to evacuate their logistically challenged positions on the north/west side of the river and re-establish a much stronger position on the far bank. Such progress would go a long way toward convincing the west to up the flow of weapons.
 
Coal's decline has only been relative. In absolute terms it has been growing all the way to peak coal consumption in 2013. What needs to be achieved in terms of the growth of renewables over the next 20-years is an unprecedented challenge. I think we (here) all agree the Ukrainians are fighting hard on our behalf for that challenge to be taken on, whereas Putin and his many fellow-travellers are fighting for fossil pollution in all its forms to continue.

View attachment 847029


and

View attachment 847030

Thank you for digging all of this up. It's a point that I first encountered about coal a few years back, and have mostly found that people don't understand.

In the US today the market cap of coal companies is something like 1% of 1% of what it was in 2008 (peak market cap). Coal companies are nearly valueless compared to what they were (think serial bankruptcies, shareholders and bondholders wiped out a few times, before finally landing in private hands that get them cheap enough to make for a nice dividend stream).

That drop in market cap is accompanied by maybe a 50% reduction in the share of the US energy budget provided by coal (more like 1/3rd down to 1/5th or a 1/3rd reduction).

Coal consumption in the US, where it is increasingly uneconomic to use for energy, is still a long ways from actually being a rounding error. And the economics are heavily against coal.


This dynamic is why we need to be building renewables like its a boots-on-the-moon-this-decade project AND we're still going to be using a lot of oil and gas for decades to come.


I figure the value in the coal companies today are in the already existing capital infrastructure (thus very little investment in new mines or significant expansions of existing mines) - these are effectively run them into the ground assets which make for a very nice income stream in private hands. As public companies they would only be valuable as dividend plays, with stock market economics entirely stacked against them.
 
Thank you for digging all of this up. It's a point that I first encountered about coal a few years back, and have mostly found that people don't understand.

In the US today the market cap of coal companies is something like 1% of 1% of what it was in 2008 (peak market cap). Coal companies are nearly valueless compared to what they were (think serial bankruptcies, shareholders and bondholders wiped out a few times, before finally landing in private hands that get them cheap enough to make for a nice dividend stream).

That drop in market cap is accompanied by maybe a 50% reduction in the share of the US energy budget provided by coal (more like 1/3rd down to 1/5th or a 1/3rd reduction).

Coal consumption in the US, where it is increasingly uneconomic to use for energy, is still a long ways from actually being a rounding error. And the economics are heavily against coal.

This dynamic is why we need to be building renewables like its a boots-on-the-moon-this-decade project AND we're still going to be using a lot of oil and gas for decades to come.

I figure the value in the coal companies today are in the already existing capital infrastructure (thus very little investment in new mines or significant expansions of existing mines) - these are effectively run them into the ground assets which make for a very nice income stream in private hands. As public companies they would only be valuable as dividend plays, with stock market economics entirely stacked against them.

In 2008 US coal generation was 1,985TWh.
In 2021 US coal generation was 898TWh.
2008 US coal consumption was 1,121.7 MMst.
2021 US coal consumption was 546 MMst

In 13 years it's fallen by more than half.

There's more renewable generation than coal generation now.
 
In 2008 US coal generation was 1,985TWh.
In 2021 US coal generation was 898TWh.
2008 US coal consumption was 1,121.7 MMst.
2021 US coal consumption was 546 MMst

In 13 years it's fallen by more than half.

There's more renewable generation than coal generation now.
Ah yes. The well known "there is no world outside USA" fallacy. Meanwhile it is global CO2 levels that increase.
 
In 2008 US coal generation was 1,985TWh.
In 2021 US coal generation was 898TWh.
2008 US coal consumption was 1,121.7 MMst.
2021 US coal consumption was 546 MMst

In 13 years it's fallen by more than half.

There's more renewable generation than coal generation now.
Ah yes. The well known "there is no world outside USA" fallacy. Meanwhile it is global CO2 levels that increase.

Both of you are correct.

USA consumption has dropped nicely, but China's consumption increase of coal during that same time-period has far outstripped what was saved in the USA.

And frankly, part of it is our (USA's) fault. We've outsourced so much of our industrial capacity to China, that we've really only shifted the CO2 production to another part of the globe, not reigned it in.
 
Ah yes. The well known "there is no world outside USA" fallacy. Meanwhile it is global CO2 levels that increase.

There's also the UK, where use fell even faster, which I'd have expected you to know.

A lot of the shift in the USA and UK was increased use of natural gas.
But a sizable chunk was increased use of renewables, and global annual renewable deployment rate has continued to increase.
Expected global PV manufacturing is expected to be 1TW _per year_ by 2030. End of 2021 total nameplate was under 900GW.
Offshore wind strike prices keep falling, and floating wind hasn't yet been deployed in significant volume.

This isn't going to be like the oil and gas fuel transition. It'll start biting and then keep biting harder.