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SAE vs CHAdeMO
- Thread starter TEG
- Start date
A few cars in two states falls into the none planned category. Quick charger installation is not cheap, so only a fool would invest money in something like that. You won't be seeing ANY of these chargers UNLESS the installation is fully paid for by taxpayers.
By that time, superchargers should be everywhere. Considering Tesla's adapter track record, I wouldn't count on an adapter anytime soon, if ever.
SAE combos will be very nice fillers between Supercharger stations. If you think Tesla will drag their feet on a simple combo adapter, then releasing a CHAdeMO adapter in North America will be an even more remote possibility. As I said, even if they do it will probably be prohibitively expensive and bulky. Its difficult to envision a scenario in North America where a CHAdeMo would ever be more beneficial to Model S owner, on the basis of capacity, cost or fucntionality.
Larry
The most common 240V outlet in the wild I have run into is a NEMA 10-50. Very simple adapter, which Tesla doesn't offer for either the Model S or Roadster. Same with a TT-30, and 6-20. If it wasn't for the Japanese market entry, CHAdeMO would have never happened(it still might not be available in the US).
If Tesla doesn't release any adaptors then I don't give a rats ass whether Chademo or CCS lives or dies. Depending on whichever adaptor is released and what is more convenient, that's who I'm rooting for. At the moment it looks easier for them to release a Combo adaptor, and there has been mention that they don't want to release a Chademo adaptor in the US due to the CAN bus access. Anyway, we'll see. As I've said before I'm content to wait because there aren't any Chademo OR Combo chargers that I'm currently interested in charging at.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Spark is a compliance EV - i3 has already hedged bets by offering the REx option. Chances of people buying CCS instead of (or in addition to REx) is very low.
TonyWilliams
Active Member
Many of the arguments are the same circular ones, over and over and over and over:
- I want brand "B" chargers because the adapter to Tesla might be cheaper than the brand "A".
- I want brand "B" because there aren't any brand "A" chargers in my neighborhood.
- "They" are going to build beau coup brand "B" chargers and pass up brand "A".
- "They" are going to build beau coup brand "B" cars to use the brand "B" chargers.
Let's check back in a year and see how many brand "B" chargers and cars there are, and how many more brand "A" ones were added. Same for the adaptors... Tesla will build both "A" and "B" adaptors, and yes, one will probably be more than the other.
- I want brand "B" chargers because the adapter to Tesla might be cheaper than the brand "A".
- I want brand "B" because there aren't any brand "A" chargers in my neighborhood.
- "They" are going to build beau coup brand "B" chargers and pass up brand "A".
- "They" are going to build beau coup brand "B" cars to use the brand "B" chargers.
Let's check back in a year and see how many brand "B" chargers and cars there are, and how many more brand "A" ones were added. Same for the adaptors... Tesla will build both "A" and "B" adaptors, and yes, one will probably be more than the other.
Hi Tony,
I think you summarized that nicely. :biggrin:
The thing is this isn't a sprint. This is going to be an indurance race. You know the outcome won't be resolved in just a year. In fact, when this DC Charging race is finished it wouldn't surprise me if neither of these two competitors are still in the running and some dark horse that is building compelling EVs and a proprietary charging network wins. :wink:
Larry
A bunch of automakers have chosen sides already, but the every one that has gone w/Frankenplug except BMW doesn't have a serious BEV program, let alone one that's serious about DC fast charging.
Please look back at these posts and sales figures then tell me how many vehicles w/do you think that non-serious Frankenplug BEV/PHEV players will sell in the US in a given year and how many of those will actually have Frankenplug?
SAE vs CHAdeMO - Page 2
SAE vs CHAdeMO - Page 3
SAE vs CHAdeMO - Page 4
You can look at the Spark EV (not much more than a CA compliance car) sales figures at June 2013 Dashboard - HybridCars.com and July 2013 Dashboard - HybridCars.com. IIRC, you still can't get one equipped w/Frankenplug. And, BMW i3 doesn't ship in the US until 2Q of '14...
Then, step back and think of the # of vehicles sold on the CHAdeMO side...
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
If Tesla releases a CCS adapter and the goE3 network continues expanding supporting that CCS adapter, then throw in the 200 chargers that will be installed in CA by NRG. All the other players can sell 0 CCS cars and there will still be a strong market for it.
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CHAdeMO compliant but not UL listed. Only the Yazaki one is explicitly UL listed, and if you dig in UL's directory also the Dyden one. The rest are irrelevant in the US because they aren't UL listed (likely Japan market only). It's also why you never see the other designs in the US. Same goes for CE rating in Europe.
But what I'm pointing out is the round socket shape is way less important than having an good handle design.
"a symetrical design, its called robustness and is associated with reliability"
Having a symmetric connector does not equal robustness or reliability, as my counter example with the older Yazaki CHAdeMO connector directly shows! That's my main point.
I've studied design a bit (in a different industry) and it's generally good to follow certain rules of thumb (such as using round connectors in your example), but that does not necessarily mean when you deviate from them, your design is bad.
I'll point out again, that the connector will likely be designed for 10k insertions and removals (mainly socket and pins). Then it's all down to the other breakable parts (the black handle in the Yazaki CHAdeMO connector, and button in the other designs).
I'll also throw a picture in here, even if you account for the perspective difference, the SAE
DC plug does not look bigger than the CHAdeMO one. It's certainly taller, but the overall frontal area looks similar.
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This one is a bogus excuse. Since the Tesla connectors (neither US nor EU) don't have a CAN bus, there's no issue of exposing it. Any reasonable CHAdeMO adapter would have a high-level protocol conversion between the CHAdeMO transactions (that happen to be transported over a dedicated CAN bus) and the SAE-DC transactions (which happen to be transported over PLC). Even if Tesla chose to put more of the CHAdeMO logic in the car rather than the adapter, it would still be a case of encapsulating the CHAdeMO transactions and passing them over to/from the BMS - the fact that they start out on a CAN bus is irrelevant.
Step back and think a few years ahead. Which automaker has the best chance of selling hundreds of thousands of EVs a year?
As I said this is a long-term issue, but the handwritting is on the wall regarding the trend away from CHAdeMO in North American and Europe. Yes, it will take several years for this trend to manifest itself. We have to extend our vision beyond the immediate and envision the charging terrain in the timeframe after Tesla starts producing the Gen III vehicle at the rate of perhaps hundreds of thousands per year. In that timeframe we will see serious entrants to the EV market. If Tesla fails to deliver the Gen III then the subject of this thread will be relevant. However, if Tesla is successful the question of SAE vs. CHAdeMO might merely be a short-term academic question. Who knows by then the other auto makers might finally figure out if you can't beat them join them. Perhaps Toyota and Daimler will get serious and produce EVs with a 200+ range. With their existing partnership with Tesla its quite possible that neither SAE combo or CHAdeMO will be selected and they will assist in the build-out of the Supercharger network in exchange for access.
I repeat, my focus is what protocol is best for Model S owners. Clearly that is Tesla Supercharging. So in the short-term the question is when a Supercharger is not available, which protocol is second best for Model S owners? I am convinced that a CHAdeMO adapter will be prohibitively expensive and probably fairly bulky and unwieldy to handle in comparison to a SAE combo adapter. CHAdeMO chargers will likely have less capacity than SAE combo chargers as well.
Larry
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No automakers and very few dealers are interested in doing this, unless they are forced to. Many will go out of business because of this(if Tesla succeeds) so quick charging standards are the least of their worries in the near to mid term future.
Exactly, Tesla is the automaker that is most likely to be the first to sell hundreds of thousands of EVs a year. If so, the Supercharging protocol will emerge as the dominant DC fast charging protocol. If the other automakers don't move quickly, and cwerdna suggests they are not, then SAE combo vs. CHAdeMO battle will become irrelevant.
Larry
That all depends on what strategy Tesla wishes to pursue when it comes to third party chargers. It simply doesn't make sense for Tesla to want to own every single DC charging station. So either they license the supercharger protocol for other people to adopt, or they provide adaptors for one or both of the other standards. What direction Tesla wants to go for North America remains uncertain, and will have a huge influence.
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