SAE vs CHAdeMO

[TonyWilliams]

Why CHAdeMO Electric Car Charging Is on Death Row in Europe

By Laurent J. Masson August 14, 2013
http://www.plugincars.com/why-chademo-death-row-europe-128001.html

Wow, what a hatchet job. I'm all for editorial, but thankfully this is nothing more than the rantings of a dude with an agenda, cherry picking data to the extreme. Easy to counter, that's for sure, but it almost seems like just trolling of responses; it's that bad.

From the comment section on that piece:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-%2f%2fEP%2f%2fNONSGML%2bCOMPARL%2bPE-516.591%2b01%2bDOC%2bPDF%2bV0%2f%2fEN

"Direct Current (DC) fast recharging points for electric vehicles may be alternatively equipped with connectors of Type "CHAdeMO" for a transitional period ending on 31 December 2018."

"Justification:
As the Combo technology is not fully ready at the moment and as there are more than 650 CHAdeMO chargers already installed in Europe, with more than 1000 to be deployed by the end of 2013, it is important to set a time-limited transitional period where both systems can be deployed, with the final objective to find a single standard as indicated in the Commission proposal"

Hey, I don't doubt for a second that the "single standard" is already decided, but this document doesn't explicitly say that. They COULD chose CHAdeMO in December 2018.

Here comes the next standards war... wireless:

"Wireless recharging points for electric vehicles shall comply with the technical specifications set out in point 1.2a of Annex III by 31 December 2015 at the latest."

"Wireless recharging points for electric vehicles shall be equipped, for interoperability purposes, with a primary device as described in IEC/TS 61980-3, to be adopted by 2014"


Text proposed by the Commission Amendment

‘Recharging point’ means a slow recharging point or a fast recharging point or an installation for the physical exchange of a battery of an electric vehicle.

‘Recharging point’ means a normal, fast or wireless recharging point or an installation for the physical exchange of a battery of an electric vehicle.

Justification:
This Directive should not prevent the development and introduction of other recharging technologies, such as wireless charging, on which international standardisation is currently in progress.

Charge points "everwhere" in EU:

Member States, in close cooperation with regional and local authorities and with the industry concerned, shall ensure that a minimum number of recharging
points for electric vehicles are put into place, at least the number given in the table in Annex II, by 31 December 2020 at the latest.

How much does it cost to charge your car in EU?

All publicly accessible recharging points for electric vehicles shall be equipped with adequate systems providing clear and transparent consumer information concerning the recharging cost and specifying whether the price indicated covers a service provision or the amount of electricity (kWh) consumed.

Justification:
At the recharging point, a conventional metering system would be sufficient. On the contrary, given the additional costs, forcing to install an intelligent metering system on all public charging points could prove to be an obstacle to the necessary development of infrastructure, especially during the catalyst phase of the market (early market development).

It looks like the German Mennekes Type 2 plus also has issues (and that Tesla is using in EU and non-EU Europe):

Alternate Current (AC) normal recharging points for electric vehicles shall be equipped, for interoperability purposes, with connectors of Type 2 as described in standard EN 62196-2:2012, which shall be provided, where required, with a compatible socket-outlet comprising additional safety features such as a safety shutter.

To that end, the standard EN 62196-2:2012 shall be revised promptly and kept up to date in the light of technological progress and the developments in good engineering practice in safety matters.

Justification:
Standardisation bodies shall be mandated in the framework of this Directive to adjust the current standard ruling connectors of Type 2 (and their socket-outlet) in light of specific safety requirements (safety shutters). It is important to have an explicit reference in the Directive to the need of ensuring that the connector must be truly interoperable and comply with all safety practices and rules in place in Europe.

 

[stopcrazypp]

It looks like the German Mennekes Type 2 plus also has issues (and that Tesla is using in EU and non-EU Europe): ... compatible socket-outlet comprising additional safety features such as a safety shutter.

That's from the Type 3 vs Type 2 days when the Italian and French were bickering over how Mennekes Type 2 does not have a shutter while Type 3 does. So Mennekes made a Type 2 connector with a shutter to shut them up:
http://www.mennekes.de/en/latest0.html?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=883&cHash=143015f2385ea4fe930d04795b919cce

And since then the EU has already issued guidelines that they will only support Mennekes Type 2 (not Type 1 or Type 2). Right now Mennekes has to add shutter equipped ports to countries that require them, but it's not a big engineering issue (it's just a piece of plastic).

 

[ZBB]

So... now that there are 2 SAE DC chargers in AZ, I think its time to start asking about when the SAE DC adapter will be avail for the Model S...

Here's the article on the 2nd one, which was installed this week -- in Tucson. The first is ~50 miles north of Tucson at Picacho Peak. Its one of the GOE3 chargers with both SAE DC and CHAdeMO, as well as J1772 AC plugs...
Tucson's gets first public 'fast charger' for electric cars

On a side note, GOE3's website is horrendous. The "Plan" page has a timeline -- and clicking on the dots brings up boxes with lorum ipsum... Looks like their facebook has slighty more info, and a bigger version of their planned route map -- apparently they have a plan to add DC fast charging along all the routes highlighted in blue.

 

[stopcrazypp]

So... now that there are 2 SAE DC chargers in AZ, I think its time to start asking about when the SAE DC adapter will be avail for the Model S...

From this part in your linked article, I guess they are assuming such an adapter will be made pretty soon:

The charger soon will be able to also fast-charge Tesla electric cars, which draw more juice for a range of up to 200 miles, but GOe3 is awaiting finalization of a U.S.-standard plug for those vehicles, Bricacombe said. The fee to charge Teslas will be $13.

The biggest hold up right now is UL listing (which is required before allowing public use of SAE DC chargers).

On a related note, VW and BMW installed the first two public CCS chargers in Germany in June and July this year:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196#Combined_Charging_System

So the CCS chargers have gone from "non-existent" to having 2 public chargers each in the US (*publicly accessible, awaiting UL Listing for operation) and Germany.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... but GOe3 is awaiting finalization of a U.S.-standard plug for those vehicles, Bricacombe said. The fee to charge Teslas will be $13.

Does that mean they are awaiting Tesla to provide them an adaptor to the "US standard"?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Does that mean they are awaiting Tesla to provide them an adaptor to the "US standard"?

No way to know if they have contacted Tesla to arrange for that to happen or if they are just assuming Tesla will release that adapter eventually. My reading of it is that they are waiting for UL listing to happen first on the SAE DC side (the connector was not enabled on the first charger and I assume also this second one for the same reason).

 

[TonyWilliams]

No way to know if they have contacted Tesla to arrange for that to happen or if they are just assuming Tesla will release that adapter eventually. My reading of it is that they are waiting for UL listing to happen first on the SAE DC side (the connector was not enabled on the first charger and I assume also this second one for the same reason).

Ok, so my blurb about no public operational stations is still valid.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Ok, so my blurb about no public operational stations is still valid.

* In the US *
The ones in Germany are already operational.

IEC 62196-3 (which contains CCS) is not going to have it's functional release until December this year, but Germany has its own standards committee that probably has approved the CCS system beforehand (just like how Mennekes Type 2 was approved for public use in Germany before IEC had it).

I guess I should edit my comment to say 2 "publicly accessible" stations in the US.

But having the stations installed is still significant. It's all a matter of enabling it later (a flip of a switch somewhere in the charger).

 

[stopcrazypp]

I just dug around to see how UL certification went for CHAdeMO chargers.

The first public CHAdeMO charger in the US was installed and made operational on August 2010 (not UL listed AFAIK, but it seems this is a case where the utility found it an acceptable risk or their insurance policy did not require it):
http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/06/north-americas-first-public-use-quick-charge-station-opens-in-p/

First UL listed one is Akerwade in January 2011 (CHAdeMO Certified December 2010):
http://cec-mi.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DCChargingPresentation.pdf

The first eVgo (Aerovironment) stations were installed in April 2011:
They were still not enabled as of May 16, 2011, awaiting UL approval.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/09/nrgs-evgo-charging-stations-hope-to-catch-the-eyes-of-texas/
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...s-to-japan-dont-need-your-stinkin-fast-charge

There's also mention of the Vacaville TEPCO prototype unit which was never UL certified (which PG&E turned off from public use for this reason) and eventually replaced by a Eaton unit.

Aerovironment had their entire line UL certified by June 2011 (and presumably the eVgo stations were activated then):
http://www.avinc.com/resources/pres...ification_for_full_line_of_electric_vehicle_c

It seems GOE3 is doing something similar to the evGO network: install chargers first, activate later when UL approval is done.

Interestingly I found a comment by Tony from May 2012 listing the predicted timeline for Combo:

Summer to Fall 2012 – SAE votes to approve Combo “Frankenplug”Fall to Winter 2012 – Some charger manufacturers begin implementation of Combo in existing ChadeMo or dedicated units.
Spring 2013 – Prototyping
Summer – Fall 2013 – Submissions to UL or other laboratories.
Summer 2014 – UL listing
Fall 2015 – first UL approved Combo chargers deployed

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...e-plug-competition-46208/&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1

But from the March 2013 document, it seems they are already testing production ready variants (not just rough prototypes) and have already submitted chargers for UL certification (connector already certified). The chargers were likely already designed with UL certification from the start (it reuses lots of parts from their CHAdeMO chargers). It seems they expect certification to happen over this summer and then chargers to be ready for public use by end of year.
http://www.evcollaborative.org/site...ve DC Combo Update for 13Mar2013_final2_0.pdf

 

[renim]

Ok, so my blurb about no public operational stations is still valid.

correct, in a general global sense (including USA) but no longer in EU.

but GOe3 reference to Tesla compatibilty seems independant of SAE frankenplug. goe3charge | GOe3 Official Blog
“GOe3 E3 charging stations will utilize CHAdeMo, Tesla plug standards, as well as the developing standardized SAE when the technology becomes available,” said Bruce Brimacombe, CEO of GOe3.

1st item to note, the reuse of a Chademo DC core should facilitate faster UL listing than one without.
2nd item to note, business that aspire to be commercially sustainable for faster charging need to supply what the market uses. In the EU, that is DC Chademo/AC Mennekes, in the US that will be DC Chademo/Tesla plug (AC ?)

Both the Tesla plug, Chademo and Chinese GB/T and Mennekes are resonable plug designs,
Chademo plugs are strictly symmetrical about the horzontal axis and Tesla plugs are close to symmetrical about the horizontal axis

a reliable design for an industrial plug would be similar to http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/crousehinds/industrial-products/catalog-pdfs/pr/arktite-welder-series.pdf
note, it is also symmetrical about both the horizontal and vertical axis.

Chademo is about 70mm vertically, SAE Frankenplug is about 100mm vertically, SAE Frankenplug may have reliability/useability insertion issues due to is asymmetric nature. Tesla plug being even more compact than Chademo and should be fine.
View attachment 28545

 

[stopcrazypp]

SAE Frankenplug may have reliability/useability insertion issues due to is asymmetric nature.

There was some talk of this by people who tried out the early prototypes at one of the annual EV shows (can't find the link right now). There should still be ways to design the shape of the handle though for optimal leverage and low insertion force. And it likely will be designed to match the 10k cycles of insertion/removal that are common in most J1772 and CHAdeMO connectors.

There had been plenty of problems with the CHAdeMO connector design, mainly the un-intuitive black handle in the front (which seems to be fairly easily broken by getting the gears inside stuck by people unfamiliar with how to use it, there's been multiple public chargers that this has happened to). The redesigned next-gen CHAdeMO connector is more like J1772 (button rather than handle to lock).
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7338
http://charge.yazaki-group.com/english/product/quick_outlet_neo.html

- - - Updated - - -

but GOe3 reference to Tesla compatibilty seems independant of SAE frankenplug. goe3charge | GOe3 Official Blog
“GOe3 E3 charging stations will utilize CHAdeMo, Tesla plug standards, as well as the developing standardized SAE when the technology becomes available,” said Bruce Brimacombe, CEO of GOe3.

Supposedly Tesla's protocol is extremely similar to (some people say the same as) SAE DC with only the connector being different.

And from the previous unveiling, the chargers in question only have two connectors on opposite sides: 1 CHAdeMO and 1 SAE J1772 DC. There's no Tesla connector.
https://radio.azpm.org/p/azspot/2012/12/13/20437-quick-charge-at-picacho-peak/

I find it more likely they just enable the SAE DC connector and go the adapter route for Tesla rather than retrofitting a Tesla connector.

 

[renim]

There are at least 6 different handles that are Chademo compliant, so what, there will more added.
bottom of page CHAdeMO EVs, Chargers and Connectors CHAdeMO Association
the point is, SAE Frankenplug is a poor (IMHO I would use the word Hasty) design, I understand Elon described it as 'it sucks'
All the industrial power connectors I have seen were circular in aspect, none ever looked so cobbled together as the Frankenplug. There is a good conservative design reason to using a symetrical design, its called robustness and is associated with reliability.
After significant real world use (weather, strong and weak people, dirt etc) the Frankenplug just looks so - lacking in function for design.
It even manages to be around 3/7s larger than the Chademo connector, if people freak put seeing Chademo, they'll run for the hills after seeing a Frankenplug.

if Tony Williams can swap connectors between UMC and J1772, then perhaps GOe3's suppliers can do something equivalent (properly) at their chargers.

Seriously, twin chargers (2x10kW) in a Tesla will remain far more useful than dreams of a Frankenplug future.

AC Mennekes and DC Chademo are the defacto market standards, Tesla supercharger is the de facto premium standard.

SAE Frankenplug....is a cobbled together, poorly designed connector.
SAE Frankenplug doesn't appear automotive (no CAN bus)
SAE Frankenplug doesn't appear industrial (ugly, widely Asymmetric)
SAE Frankenplug doesn't appear consumer friendly (it sucks)

 

[TonyWilliams]

There are at least 6 different handles that are Chademo compliant, so what, there will more added.

The first Yazaki CHAdeMO plug was REALLY, REALLY bad for user interface. Unfortunately, that's the only one that folks can remember, it seems. There are now even more than these six (I have a Dyden downstairs in my garage right now):

 

[Larry Chanin]

if Tony Williams can swap connectors between UMC and J1772, then perhaps GOe3's suppliers can do something equivalent (properly) at their chargers.

Seriously, twin chargers (2x10kW) in a Tesla will remain far more useful than dreams of a Frankenplug future.

While it is clear that any of the so-called DC fast charging "standards" can't compete with Tesla's elegant design, I don't quite understand the assertion that a maximum of 20kW of on-board Tesla chargers would be more useful than a SAE combo charger at 86kW.

For Model S owners it seems that the SAE combo will supply more capacity, requires a relatively inexpensive physical adapter, versus CHAdeMO that will require both a bulky physical adapter and expensive electronics.

Why would a Model S owner in North America or Europe prefer the CHAdeMO? Surely this debate is not just about how ugly the SAE combo connector is? The Tesla's connector is a lot prettier than the SAE J1772, yet with the Tesla J1772 adapter there are no problems charging. How would charging a Model S from an ugly SAE combo with a Tesla adapter be significantly different?

Thanks.

Larry

 

[TonyWilliams]

Why would a Model S owner in North America or Europe prefer the CHAdeMO?

Because there are well over 1000 CHAdeMO stations already operating between NA and EU and nee-zero Frankenplugs?

 

[dsm363]

Because there are well over 1000 CHAdeMO stations already operating between NA and EU and nee-zero Frankenplugs?

That will never change? Unless all the European and American auto manufactures get behind CHAdeMO then it might look different in a few years.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Because there are well over 1000 CHAdeMO stations already operating between NA and EU and nee-zero Frankenplugs?

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the response.

Is that the only reason? Certainly not very many chargers in the bigger scheme of things.

Being a home theater fan I had the same reasoning when the HD DVD standard had first mover advantage. It didn't mean much as we know Blu Ray displaced it when the studios chose sides. The same will happen to CHAdeMO as most of the car manufacturers selling in the North American market and the Europeans chose sides.

I'm guessing if Tesla were ever to release a CHAdeMO adapter in North America it will be so expensive and bulky such that the vast majority of Model S owners would never buy it. Those few CHAdeMO chargers scattered around the country really won't mean anything if a reasonably priced and manageable adapter is not available.

The problem is even more acute on the East Coast, particularly in the South where there are little to no CHAdeMOs.

Larry

 

[qwk]

Is that the only reason?

One cannot currently go and buy a car that can use the frankenplug, AND none are planned for production(just fluff from GM). Who in their right mind would pay for the installation of a charging unit that nobody can use? Makes no sense.

 

[gregincal]

AND none are planned for production(just fluff from GM).

I'm not sure what you mean by fluff from GM. This is a confirmed option for the Spark EV, and the BMW i3 will support this when it ships as well.

 

[qwk]

I'm not sure what you mean by fluff from GM. This is a confirmed option for the Spark EV, and the BMW i3 will support this when it ships as well.

Spark is only sold in CA and OR, and they don't have the fast charge option available yet. i3 will use the Rex to extend range, and BMW hasn't made a commitment to provide charge option.