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#41
deonb said:
No... Just no.

You can heat up a piece of metal with your car battery and burn yourself, but you can't "zap" yourself with a 12V car battery anymore than you can "zap" yourself with a 12v remote control battery.
Click to expand...

Are you arguing that it's not possible to cause serious injury with a 12V car battery? They cause third degree burns *all the time*, sometimes badly enough to require skin grafts. Simply, a 12V battery pushing maybe half an amp is not comparable to a car battery pushing hundreds of amps, even at equivalent voltages.

If you're the slightest bit sweaty, or wearing jewelry, I can guarantee you that a 12V car battery is dangerous.
 
#42
Gizmotoy said:
Are you arguing that it's not possible to cause serious injury with a 12V car battery? They cause third degree burns *all the time*, sometimes badly enough to require skin grafts. Simply, a 12V battery pushing maybe half an amp is not comparable to a car battery pushing hundreds of amps, even at equivalent voltages.
Click to expand...

Current is drawn, not pushed. And Ohms law is not negotiable.

If your body resistance is at a certain level (let's say 1k - which means you are drenched in an electrolyte like saltwater), you will draw 12 milliamps from a 12v battery. It doesn't matter whether the 12V battery is the size of a coin, or the size of Texas - you will draw at most 12mA from it (I say at most, because a tiny battery may have a large ESR that will cause an internal voltage drop over low resistance, and thus prevents it from even delivering 12mA).

You only need 30 mA to kill you, which is far less than either a 12V car battery, remote control battery, or cellphone charger is capable of providing over low resistance. The reason it doesn't kill you is because you can't draw 30 mA from 12V through your skin - the resistance is too high.

I agree that with a 12V battery you can go and heat up something with low resistance, like a piece of metal, and burn yourself with that. That's not the same as zapping though. (I don't count burning myself on a warm stove plate to be 'zapping').


Gizmotoy said:
If you're the slightest bit sweaty, or wearing jewelry, I can guarantee you that a 12V car battery is dangerous.
Click to expand...

Sweating won't do it. Wearing jewelry - again you can melt or heat up the jewelry and get a burn from it. But again, not the same thing as zapping.
 
#43
Well, I quite clearly never claimed it would kill. So essentially it boils down to a disagreement that I used the word "zap" to describe the sudden spark or burst of energy that accompanies being injured by a car battery. I mean, that's basically the precise definition of "zap" (it literally means a sudden occurrence often accompanied by a loud noise), but it's not really worth arguing over.
 
#44
Gizmotoy said:
Well, I quite clearly never claimed it would kill. So essentially it boils down to a disagreement that I used the word "zap" to describe the sudden spark or burst of energy that accompanies being injured by a car battery. I mean, that's basically the precise definition of "zap" (it literally means a sudden occurrence often accompanied by a loud noise), but it's not really worth arguing over.
Click to expand...

Ok, peace in that case :).

I meant 'zap' as in electrocution, where you would touch a + and a - voltage terminal and get an electrical shock.

Quite a few people take lots of care to make sure they don't touch the 12V terminals of a car battery, yet will show a careless attitude to the 400V 100uf capacitor right next to them.
 
#46
lolachampcar said:
So you're telling me that all those Mel Gibson movies where the bad guys are getting ready to torture him with a car battery and jumper cables is BS???????

That is why they call it suspension of disbelief :)
Click to expand...

Aww. I hope I didn't spoil Lethal Weapon for you!

You can always pretend that they had a 12V -> 500V boost converter between the battery and cable... and then also somehow found it necessary to ground one side of it so that Mr. Joshua can also get a shock from it.

It's always possible... :)
 
#47
One of my early lessons working in a blacksmith shop and full-service gasoline station was that you never wear rings - especially large high school class rings - while working on a car. It's more than a zap when negative terminal + wrench + ring + positive terminal meet, that I'll guarantee you.
 
#48
FlasherZ said:
One of my early lessons working in a blacksmith shop and full-service gasoline station was that you never wear rings - especially large high school class rings - while working on a car. It's more than a zap when negative terminal + wrench + ring + positive terminal meet, that I'll guarantee you.
Click to expand...

Again, I agree it's not a good idea to touch pieces of hot and melting metal, or the plasma arc that forms as the leads get close to each other. It's also not a good idea to touch a blowtorch flame. But that's not the same thing as electrocution.

You can literally hold 12V terminals in your hand and weld with them if you don't get near the melting metal. See first minute of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDf2nhfxVzg

I've never felt anywhere near a noticeable current on my skin with a 12V car battery. Even dunking my hand into a saltwater solution. Tried it a bunch of times again yesterday - it just doesn't happen. Some people have said they feel a small tingle when you hold the leads onto the soft skin on their wrist if the skin is wet with saline, but I don't even feel that. You have to hold it on your tongue to feel anything.

I'm not saying 12V batteries aren't dangerous, and that it's a good idea to work on them with rings - they can heat up metal to the melting point, they can arc across close leads, they can release nasty gasses when shorted, they can fall on your head when you pull them off from a shelve... But they can't electrocute you.
 
#49
deonb said:
You can literally hold 12V terminals in your hand and weld with them if you don't get near the melting metal. See first minute of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDf2nhfxVzg
Click to expand...
The first minute of that video is the best part. Also, see his encore at 3:00 - 4V@150A through a small piece of wire, held above body parts.

Don't try this at home, folks.
 
Last edited:
#51
linkster said:
I have subscribed to your referenced Mehdi Sadaghdar's YouTube channel for quite some time. I have determined that he is an expert in many disciplines and I always study his educational and safety conscious tutorial vids before I embark on any home or automotive project. :crying:

How to change the brake pads of your car - YouTube
Click to expand...
I watched that, and thought, "This guy should be more careful. His car could fall off the jack and land on his foot. Oh, wait..."

Mehdi is either a masochist or a pretty decent cameraman; not sure which.

But to get back on topic - I posted this in the corresponding Roadster thread, but thought I'd add it here:

------------------

So they are granting access to the service manuals to MA residents under the right-to-repair law.

But the information is only one piece of the puzzle. Parts are key, too.

So the next question is, does the MA right-to-repair law compel Tesla to sell parts to MA residents?
 
#52
Also, does right to repair compel tesla to provide access to a car's diags? It so... How is that done?

hard to imagine being able to service the car without access to the diags.

tga said:
I watched that, and thought, "This guy should be more careful. His car could fall off the jack and land on his foot. Oh, wait..."

Mehdi is either a masochist or a pretty decent cameraman; not sure which.

But to get back on topic - I posted this in the corresponding Roadster thread, but thought I'd add it here:

------------------

So they are granting access to the service manuals to MA residents under the right-to-repair law.

But the information is only one piece of the puzzle. Parts are key, too.

So the next question is, does the MA right-to-repair law compel Tesla to sell parts to MA residents?
Click to expand...
 
#54
Dennis87 said:
I did buy access to the service manuals. But sadly the P85D service manual was not available for europe yet. The P85D parts catalog was :)
Is the service manual for P85D and specs available for US customers?
Click to expand...

id be surprised if they maintained an entirely separate service manual just for the D. I mean it's essentially the same car except for the front motor and drive shaft, which nobody can service except for Tesla anyway.
 
#55
I have been working a Model S CAN bus project recently (which I'm writing an Instructable for) so I ponied up the $100 for 24hrs worth of access. Lots of interesting stuff in the repair manual, you could probably strip the car down to the rivet using this guide, most images are CAD screenshots with a few real life ones mixed in, but overall quite nice quality. No information on what the various CAN ID's correspond to, or what their messages mean, so no luck on my end, but they did have detailed connector guides and schematics of everything in the car, which was somewhat helpful.

They really need to open this stuff up to all owners (not just MA) and not at these highway robbery prices, knowing how to change ones HVAC filter shouldn't require a $3,000/year fee to have access to repair info. BMW, Mercedes, Audi shop manuals are nowhere near this pricey (their parts are another story though). Even if they came out with a "lite" version stripped down for gear-head owners. It would be miles better then things are now, which is basically Apple's policy (even though I love the products and do repairs on them) not a dealer? "No Kool-Aid or Manual For You"
 
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