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There are MANY things that can go wrong in a car that has nothing to do with high voltage. Every car I have owned I have been able to buy a shop manual. They have come in handy more than once. Now I need to contact the Rangers for pictures of how to fix or repair something. They can save time by allowing me to self service.

And high voltage is no more dangerous than a tank of fuel. Actually it appears to be an order of magnitude less dangerous.
 
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Flasher,
I understand your argument and I am not advocating the release of diag capability to facilitate reverse engineering.

My points were simply that (1) the Mas. law requires manufacturers to allow independent service shops AND individuals the ability to service Tesla product. That includes diag software as the car can not be properly serviced without it. Secondly, diag software is not source code.

Your point about the diag software potentially being used to reverse engineer module communication is spot on. If it were me, I would be sniffing CAN traffic while executing targeted diag communications with things like the battery and motor/inverter pair to isolate the desired CAN messages and decipher the return data in those messages (by comparing raw to engineering units provided in the diag screen). The fact that diag software can, and likely will, be used to reverse engineer the car's systems does not and should not absolve Tesla of its responsibility to provide such software. The owner's right to repair by his own hand or that of a non-Tesla shop trumps Tesla's interest in protecting their diag software from being used to reverse engineer.

There are a myriad of ways to use authentication for diag to car and module to module communication that can be used to effectively slow or even prevent reverse engineering.
 
I can't, however tesla seems to be admitting it by allowing access to this info in MA and nowhere else. There is no other reason they would choose to allow just MA access, they'd either give our to everyone or no one.

That is not "found to be in violation" or "admitting it". That's not how law works. Until there's case law or a written contract, those statements simply aren't true.

If that were the case, Tesla would be required to make a lot more information and tools available for sale to MA buyers. It seems to be supplying enough information to show MA that they really don't need to require Tesla to offer its tools to others.

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My points were simply that (1) the Mas. law requires manufacturers to allow independent service shops AND individuals the ability to service Tesla product. That includes diag software as the car can not be properly serviced without it. Secondly, diag software is not source code.

Actually, the MA law does not require all manufacturers to offer service shops and individuals the ability to service the product. If you read the law, you'll find it doesn't apply to Tesla, in several different directions:

#1. "dealer" is expressly defined as an independently-owned franchise who purchases a license to use the manufacturer's mark for the purpose of selling the manufacturer's vehicle. Sections 1 & 2 require Tesla to provide to individuals and independent shops only the information they sell to "dealers". As Tesla has no "dealers" by the scope of the law, it is not required at all to offer anything.

#2. Section 3 says "Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to require a manufacturer to divulge a trade secret." A greater majority of Tesla's technology can be classified as a trade secrets.

The law also expressly disclaims all non-diagnostic information and telematics information. So I suppose you could make the argument it's a good idea all-around to make those diag screens available, but the provisioning/programming laptop is probably out of scope.

See 2013 Right to Repair Law | Massachusetts Right to Repair for the specific language of the law.
 
Besides the legal argument, I do think Tesla will eventually need to release service manuals. Everyone else seems to so I don't see why we should give Tesla a pass on this one. As more and more cars come out of warranty, folks shouldn't be limited to Tesla SvC for all repairs.
 
Because MA is the only state they'd want to avoid a law being passed in? If my theory is wrong, please tell me what YOU think is different about MA that Tesla feels they need to do this there, but nowhere else.

Massachusetts is the only state with a right to repair law at all. It could be that Tesla's lawyers concluded that the law did apply to them. It could be they just wanted to avoid a potential suit over not complying. It could be they fear negative publicity over not complying, even if they technically don't have to. It could be they just are trying to comply with the spirit, even though they've concluded the letter doesn't apply to them. It could be they figure not complying will result in another initiative resulting in legislation that does apply to them.


And you don't have any better insight in to what Tesla's lawyers have said either, so you shouldn't be telling me that my theory has no value unless you're willing to accept me replying in kind.

I didn't say your theory had no value, in fact I think there are plenty of reasonable theories. What I did say was we don't know for sure and that your tone was uncalled for. This is a discussion board, so let's discuss this. But there's absolutely no reason to be condescending about something that none of us can prove.
 
Besides the legal argument, I do think Tesla will eventually need to release service manuals. Everyone else seems to so I don't see why we should give Tesla a pass on this one. As more and more cars come out of warranty, folks shouldn't be limited to Tesla SvC for all repairs.

...over time, the technologies underlying the car will begin to standardize - such as locations for HV disable cut-loops, etc. This is where these types of manuals will be necessary. My point was that those people who are trying to gain access to this service information, expecting to learn about the deep details (e.g., so they can wind their own motors or wire in their own cameras, etc.) are going to be disappointed in many if not most cases. And there will be independent service facilities who can replace modules in the car. Tesla's warranty makes it a non-issue for most owners right now, though.

There will be a requirement in 2018, depending upon how you read the MA law. As to how far Tesla believes it needs to go? No one knows.

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I didn't say your theory had no value, in fact I think there are plenty of reasonable theories. What I did say was we don't know for sure and that your tone was uncalled for. This is a discussion board, so let's discuss this. But there's absolutely no reason to be condescending about something that none of us can prove.

I agree that it was inappropriate. However, the original quote said this:

Looks like the "you aren't allowed to service it anywhere but with us" business model was found to not comply with Massachusetts law.

"was found" has a specific determination to it, meaning that it was determined by an administrative agency or court of law. I asked for a specific reference to how it "was found" to be that way, and the argument changed to "well, Tesla wouldn't have done it unless it was the case", to which I argued the same argument breser makes -- that perhaps they were considering optics, or anticipating a future change to law, or perhaps just wanted to store a bit of political capital with Massachusetts since that's where they had a lot of fights in the past.

But "was found"? No. Even a lay person reading the law and the definitions (linked above) would reach the conclusions. To think that Tesla can't read that dealer is defined as "any person or business who, in the ordinary course of its business, sells or leases new motor vehicles to consumers or other end users pursuant to a franchise agreement and who has obtained a class 1 license pursuant to sections 58 and 59 of chapter 140 and diagnoses, services, maintains or repairs motor vehicles or motor vehicle engines pursuant to said franchise agreement" and read the definition of "franchise agreement" as "an oral or written arrangement for a definite or indefinite period in which a manufacturer or distributor grants to a motor vehicle dealer a license to use a trade name, service mark or related characteristic and in which there is a community of interest in the marketing of new motor vehicles or services related thereto at wholesale, retail, leasing or otherwise" is not cutting them much slack at all.
 
I hadn't seen this posted, Jack Rickard mentioned it in his latest video.

https://service.teslamotors.com/


Supposed to only be for people in Massachusetts, but he found that putting in a Mass. zip for the billing address of the CC works.

In his latest video Jack claims that Tesla is suing him and forced youtube to take down the video where he discusses this. Jack thinks he has a good fair use case and will be counter suing. I'm 100% with Jack on this one. Jack has the temperament and the finances to mount a good case.
 
In his latest video Jack claims that Tesla is suing him and forced youtube to take down the video where he discusses this. Jack thinks he has a good fair use case and will be counter suing. I'm 100% with Jack on this one. Jack has the temperament and the finances to mount a good case.
While I've disagreed with Jack a whole lot in the past, I agree with him 100% on this also. If Tesla want's to SELL cars, they need to support their customers. Otherwise they need to stop selling, and just lease(good luck with that). Furthermore, while Tesla has great service, the actual repair work sucks, as my car is going in the 3rd time next week, for the same problems. With that kind of track record, making a case for not allowing self-repair is going to be tough.
 
Right to repair is one thing.... Right to use repair documentation to reverse engineer is not the same thing in my book. Although I may not be taking Tesla's side on this, I can better understand the argument for not supporting reverse engineering as, mark my words, some day someone will have one of their hair brained projects result in a fire or an accident. All the news will be able to say is a Tesla this or a Tesla that. At no time will anyone report that dumbA** XYZ used perfectly safe parts in a bad way to bring about his/her own demise (assuming Darwin is at work).

Again, not sure I can support it but at least I understand it.
 
Right to repair is one thing.... Right to use repair documentation to reverse engineer is not the same thing in my book. Although I may not be taking Tesla's side on this, I can better understand the argument for not supporting reverse engineering as, mark my words, some day someone will have one of their hair brained projects result in a fire or an accident. All the news will be able to say is a Tesla this or a Tesla that. At no time will anyone report that dumbA** XYZ used perfectly safe parts in a bad way to bring about his/her own demise (assuming Darwin is at work).

Again, not sure I can support it but at least I understand it.

Do I own my car or not?

It really is that simple.
 
Massachusetts is the only state with a right to repair law at all. It could be that Tesla's lawyers concluded that the law did apply to them. It could be they just wanted to avoid a potential suit over not complying. It could be they fear negative publicity over not complying, even if they technically don't have to. It could be they just are trying to comply with the spirit, even though they've concluded the letter doesn't apply to them. It could be they figure not complying will result in another initiative resulting in legislation that does apply to them.

In Tesla's Code of Business Conduct, the first sentence of Section 1 (Compliance with Laws, Rules and Regulations) is: "Obeying the law, both in letter and in spirit, is the foundation on which this Company's ethical standards are built."

This suggests that Tesla is interested in following the spirit of the law, even if a strict interpretation argues that the law doesn't apply to them.
 
Do I own my car or not?

It really is that simple.

There are plenty of things that I own that 1) only run executable code, and 2) for which I don't have a right to source code or diagnostic tools.

I'm not saying what Tesla should do here or not, only pointing out that *owning* something gives you the right to use it, destroy it, sell it, etc. It doesn't give you the right to have everything that went into the making of it, so that you can modify it.
 
In his latest video Jack claims that Tesla is suing him and forced youtube to take down the video where he discusses this. Jack thinks he has a good fair use case and will be counter suing. I'm 100% with Jack on this one. Jack has the temperament and the finances to mount a good case.

Can you reference the point in his video where he talks about it? The intro to his video is longer than most YouTube videos! (No exaggeration!)

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Can you reference the point in his video where he talks about it? The intro to his video is longer than most YouTube videos! (No exaggeration!)

Found it!

EVTV Friday Show - April 17, 2015 - YouTube

Someone mercifully posted this in the YouTube contents. Now can anyone point to the part of the previous video that Tesla is apparently suing over?
 
Someone mercifully posted this in the YouTube contents. Now can anyone point to the part of the previous video that Tesla is apparently suing over?

That video has been taken down from youtube. You can still download the original from Jack's EVTV.ME website in the video archive section. The exact time stamp for that video was posted earlier in this thread.

Actually it wasn't posted in this thread, my mistake. Too many threads, and vidoes :redface:
 
Right to repair is one thing.... Right to use repair documentation to reverse engineer is not the same thing in my book. Although I may not be taking Tesla's side on this, I can better understand the argument for not supporting reverse engineering as, mark my words, some day someone will have one of their hair brained projects result in a fire or an accident. All the news will be able to say is a Tesla this or a Tesla that. At no time will anyone report that dumbA** XYZ used perfectly safe parts in a bad way to bring about his/her own demise (assuming Darwin is at work).

Again, not sure I can support it but at least I understand it.

Agree that media/public perception is playing a role here. But Tesla keeping a lid on it can only continue for so long. Eventually, with more cars coming out of warranty, the incentive will be removed for folks not to tinker with their cars. It'll happen eventually and I think Tesla ought to come to terms with it just like every other car manufacturer has.
 
That video has been taken down from youtube. You can still download the original from Jack's EVTV.ME website in the video archive section. The exact time stamp for that video was posted earlier in this thread.

Actually it wasn't posted in this thread, my mistake. Too many threads, and vidoes :redface:

Well, I don't think Tesla has much to worry about, in this case, because this guy's videos are unwatchable! But seriously, dick move, Tesla!