Should Tesla have rehired Henrik Fisker?

[Roamer]

I did a Karma test drive and cancelled my order the next day. Best automotive decision I ever made. They went out of business six months later.

The test drive car felt like a mail order fiberglass kit car.

I ordered our first Model S and never looked back. Beyond the cool look every thing else about the Karma was terrible.

The Karma was 100% form over function. I much prefer the Tesla design approach where function comes first.

 

[TEG]

As was already stated in this thread, Fisker DID NOT design the Model S.
Franz did... From scratch.

Fisker's design attempts were rejected by Musk. When it later became known that Fisker intended to launch his own EV company, it became clear why his Tesla design attempts were so lame.

I don't know anything specific. Just recall watching Tesla in the days before Franz came on board. I think Henrik was already working on it. He provided something. They weren't happy with the end result, but may have already started to engineer a chassis around what he was proposing. I don't think Model S is 100% Franz. What fraction of Henrik's input remains may be debatable. Personally, I think there is a little of his design directions still lurking in the background.

Like I said, I think they are both great designers, so it is a great pedigree no matter the exact history.

 

[Insider1970]

I want to put the speculation regarding the design to rest (it probably wont work), HF started to work on the Model S while Eberhard was still on board at Tesla, things did not go well because at the time Tesla was intending to carry over a bunch of components from Ford (no fancy touchscreens etc) and the overall layout and package of the vehicle did not lend itself to a good design. Mr F tried hard to convince Tesla/Musk etc that they should push the boundaries more (larger wheels - like what they have now etc) - what they had at the time was poor compared to the current S. He became disenfranchised with what Tesla was doing and saw a opportunity to do his own thing (I think he though they would fail in their approach based on what he did for them). He let Elon know this was going to happen, during this time Tesla was very low on cash. That's when F walked away from Tesla and started pounding the venture capitalists for $$. When Elon found out he was pissed as he had to knock on the same VC doors and sued FA - this was his way of trying to curtail the VCs from investing. He lost in arbitration as the allegations Elon made were baseless. Long story short - Yes its FVH design but Elon and Tesla learned a valuable lesson and we all got a better car in the end (better proportions, touchscreen more premium etc).HF is actually a very nice guy in real life and I think that probably he would get along with Elon but the time was not right back then.

 

[PeteP]

After reading all of the comments here it seems to me like everyone has missed the point of the original post. Who cares who actually designed the X or whether it's "swallow your pride," the real issue is that the design is mediocre at best. I have had a Model S for 2 1/2 years and I think that it's a beautiful car. The X, on the other hand, not so much. I made a reservation for an X about a year and a half ago but have not ordered one because I can't get over the design. I drove one the other day and it is an amazing car, but that doesn't make up for the looks. Basically, it's a butterface. My reservation number was over 15,000, but I got a call from the factory promising me a speedy delivery before they even hit VIN # 1,000. That's not a good sign. The marketplace is speaking and nobody here is listening.

 

[vandacca]

After reading all of the comments here it seems to me like everyone has missed the point of the original post. Who cares who actually designed the X or whether it's "swallow your pride," the real issue is that the design is mediocre at best. I have had a Model S for 2 1/2 years and I think that it's a beautiful car. The X, on the other hand, not so much. I made a reservation for an X about a year and a half ago but have not ordered one because I can't get over the design. I drove one the other day and it is an amazing car, but that doesn't make up for the looks. Basically, it's a butterface. My reservation number was over 15,000, but I got a call from the factory promising me a speedy delivery before they even hit VIN # 1,000. That's not a good sign. The marketplace is speaking and nobody here is listening.

Marketplace might be speaking, but I think there are other issues (e.g. initial build issues, non-folding seats, high price, etc.) that are more of a concern than the looks.

 

[Drivin]

Long story short - Yes its FVH design but Elon and Tesla learned a valuable lesson and we all got a better car in the end (better proportions, touchscreen more premium etc).HF is actually a very nice guy in real life and I think that probably he would get along with Elon but the time was not right back then.

Thanks for that post.

It seems that yes, they should try to hire him back (there may be more valuable lessons they can learn).

Swapping him for that guy Mr. Hubris seems like a good idea.

 

[mikes_fsd]

Should Elon have gone crawling back to Fisker? ... Not if he wanted to keep me as a customer.

I think you might be ignoring the fact that Franz von Holzhausen has been the chief designer at Tesla since 2010 & is credited with both the Model S and Model X design.

Franz von Holzhausen Joins Tesla Motors as Chief Designer

Tesla got rid of Henrik in 2008 - amid claims that his work was substandard & set them back. http://jalopnik.com/379850/tesla-sues-fisker-designers-in-worlds-most-expensive-girl-fight

Oh, and from the biography by Vance, when Tesla got the proposed Fisker design for the model S, all Tesla staff were pissed that it looked like a weird mobile...

And Bonnie is right, Franz designed the Model S... even wikipedia says so Tesla Model S - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[anticitizen13.7]

It seems that yes, they should try to hire him back (there may be more valuable lessons they can learn).

Swapping him for that guy Mr. Hubris seems like a good idea.

Given what ultimately happened with the Fisker Karma, I don't think Tesla would benefit much if any from any future work from Mr. Fisker. If the Karma is any indication of Fisker's design philosophy, it is flashy rather than timeless and will not age well. The interior is far too cramped for a car of its size.

The entire Karma project was an exercise in hubris. Outsourcing much of the engineering was a very bad idea, and resulted in a car that never quite operated or performed very well.

the real issue is that the design is mediocre at best. I have had a Model S for 2 1/2 years and I think that it's a beautiful car. The X, on the other hand, not so much. I made a reservation for an X about a year and a half ago but have not ordered one because I can't get over the design.

There is no way to design a taller and more voluminous car than Model S, but still retain an aerodynamic shape. Model X has been described as a "whale", but whales have evolved to have less drag when they swim.

Is any SUV design really any good? Especially compared to a sport sedan? They are almost all boxes on wheels. Even the best-selling Honda CR-V is a pretty ugly car.

 

[vandacca]

...
The entire Karma project was an exercise in hubris. Outsourcing much of the engineering was a very bad idea, and resulted in a car that never quite operated or performed very well.

There is no way to design a taller and more voluminous car than Model S, but still retain an aerodynamic shape. Model X has been described as a "whale", but whales have evolved to have less drag when they swim.
...

There's that word again..."Hubris". The real hubris here is that there are tons of individuals (e.g. Fisker, Faraday, Le*Car, Youxia, Thunder Power, George Hotz, etc.) that think creating an EV company is a trivial matter.

Another individual who thought this was Elon Musk (Mr. Hubris himself), but he had the determination to see it through. He is still experiencing those difficulties with every product launch so far, but he has somehow managed to prevail.

I used to think it was unfair that all these "copy-cat" companies were "stealing" all of Tesla's innovative, hard work. I no longer feel that way. Building an EV company is a lot harder than it looks and that's even before you take into account all the other necessary supporting services, like stores, service stations, charging infrastructure, etc. Then Tesla further distances themselves from the competition by incorporating battery pack manufacturing and home solar/charging.

 

[PeteP]

Marketplace might be speaking, but I think there are other issues (e.g. initial build issues, non-folding seats, high price, etc.) that are more of a concern than the looks.

No doubt that the quality issues are hurting new sales, but I think the looks are what turned off a lot of the reservation holders who would normally have ordered well before the quality issues surfaced.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

No doubt that the quality issues are hurting new sales, but I think the looks are what turned off a lot of the reservation holders who would normally have ordered well before the quality issues surfaced.

Other than the lack of the fake intake grille (aka "nosecone"), the production Model X looks substantially similar to the concept Model X exterior. If people had a problem with the "whale" design in the first place, they probably wouldn't have placed a reservation.

Consider that many people haven't yet turned their reservations into orders because they haven't had a chance to test drive a Model X or even see one in person at a Tesla Store. Spending 100k+ on a car is a big decision for many people. Some early adopters are willing to go out on a limb, but I personally wouldn't spend that much money on a car without first seeing and driving it in person.

 

[PeteP]

Other than the lack of the fake intake grille (aka "nosecone"), the production Model X looks substantially similar to the concept Model X exterior. If people had a problem with the "whale" design in the first place, they probably wouldn't have placed a reservation.

Consider that many people haven't yet turned their reservations into orders because they haven't had a chance to test drive a Model X or even see one in person at a Tesla Store. Spending 100k+ on a car is a big decision for many people. Some early adopters are willing to go out on a limb, but I personally wouldn't spend that much money on a car without first seeing and driving it in person.

Umm, the nose is the biggest problem and the source of most of the negative comments here and in reviews. Also, while the active spoiler may be cool, a fixed carbon fiber spoiler (like the Model S) would have done a lot to give more definition to the rear. The changes that need to be made to the car to make it less hideous are not significant, they just need to do something.

As far as seeing it in person, as a reservation holder I can tell you that I would have ordered instantly if the design were better. I was super excited for the reveal and was hugely disappointed. By the way, you have been able to test drive a Model X in L.A. for about a month now. I took a test drive last week and loved everything about the car except the styling and the total lack of visibility out of the rear view mirror. The sense that I got from the guys in the store is that the styling is a big issue for people who have come in to see the car.

It really amazes me how many people on this forum are totally unwilling to even acknowledge that there is an issue here. If Tesla experiences 2 quarters of less than expected sales for the X, it will be labeled as a flop forever.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Umm, the nose is the biggest problem and the source of most of the negative comments here and in reviews. Also, while the active spoiler may be cool, a fixed carbon fiber spoiler (like the Model S) would have done a lot to give more definition to the rear. The changes that need to be made to the car to make it less hideous are not significant, they just need to do something.

It really amazes me how many people on this forum are totally unwilling to even acknowledge that there is an issue here.

You are confusing your personal opinion with fact. Also, I am perfectly willing to criticize Tesla when I feel it is necessary, and have done so on numerous occasions.

I am willing to acknowledge that there may be an issue, but I don't think there's enough evidence yet to support that conclusion. If the Model X production line issues resolve, but the car doesn't sell as well as I expect, there could be a problem.

However, that doesn't preclude other issues, like lack of folding 2nd row seats, from also preventing people turning their reservations into purchases.

As far as seeing it in person, as a reservation holder I can tell you that I would have ordered instantly if the design were better. I was super excited for the reveal and was hugely disappointed. By the way, you have been able to test drive a Model X in L.A. for about a month now. I took a test drive last week and loved everything about the car except the styling and the total lack of visibility out of the rear view mirror. The sense that I got from the guys in the store is that the styling is a big issue for people who have come in to see the car.

The availability of test drives in one city is a poor indicator of nationwide availability of test drives.

Lack of rearward visibility has been noted by pretty much everyone who owns or has test driven a Model X. Doesn't the rear camera compensate somewhat though?

If Tesla experiences 2 quarters of less than expected sales for the X, it will be labeled as a flop forever.

Labeled by whom?

Sales have already sucked for 3 quarters. Q3 '15 deliveries totaled 6 cars. Q4 '15 sales were 200-300. Q1 '16 about 2400. This happened despite company declarations that the ramp would be faster than Model S.

I don't have a problem with people criticizing Tesla. I have a problem with conclusions not adequately supported by facts.

 

[cwerdna]

The Karma has significantly subpar passenger and cargo volume for a sedan of its footprint.

Indeed, per Compare Side-by-Side under the Specs tab, the '12 Fisker Karma received an EPA size classification of subcompact.

In contrast (if the dimensions below are correct), the 20-inch shorter Prius and narrower Prius earned midsize while the 7-inch shorter Sonata earned large car classification.

2012 Fisker Karma Specifications
2012 Toyota Prius Specifications
2012 Hyundai Sonata Specifications

 

[satoshi]

We all know what a beautifully stunning car the Model S is. And, let's face it, there have been a gazillion sedans since the beginning of time. To design something that classy, sexy, and beautiful was nothing short of amazing. Then consider that the Model S was designed by the same person that designed the Fisker Karma - another stunningly sexy sedan. When some of the initial prototypes of the Model X were shown, I was thinking, it's not bad, but it's not stunning like the S is. But, I felt like it was close enough that with a few small tweaks, it could actually be a very nice looking car in its production version. Yet, when the X was shown in its actual production version on Sept 29th, to me, it was downright hideous. It looks like an egg. The nose of the car is simply atrocious. Granted, there are people that say they love it (like there were people that loved the Aztek!). But, just judging by the average person I've talked to, I've not met one person who said it was anything better than "ok" or "not bad". Most say it is terrible. These same people rave about the Model S.

The amount of time you spent discussing aesthetics, sickens me. Other than aerodynamics, aesthetics should be the least important part of a car's design... But alas, the average human is so intensely vain that this is often way more important than it really should be.

If I had an aeordynamic egg, that goes fast, and runs on electricity and gets from A to B: I'm more than content.

 

[GSP]

Franz has done a great job and I am been glad that he is on the Tesla team ever since he hired in.

No, Tesla should not (and will not) ever consider hiring Henrik Fisker. The Karma was all about looks. The cabin and trunk are extremely cramped, and the drivetrain engineering was for the most part a very poor design.

GSP

 

[Roentgen]

I think it's a stretch to say that most people aren't buying due to the X's looks. I will personally say I was not enamored of the look initially, but the only things really keeping me back was not seeing one in person, nor having a test drive. Both of these were alleviated by the test drive event they invited us to.

Seeing the car in person and giving it a test drive makes a big difference - after seeing one in the flesh (or metal and leather, I guess), my wife and I were more accepting of it's looks (despite not really liking it on initial release). Enough to actually buy one. It has since grown on us, and we both really like it now. In fact, I actually like the nose better than on the "classic" S, and think the redesign is really nice.

So I think the lack of showroom availability is the major factor here, not design.

 

[BriansTesla]

I love the looks of my S but I have not finalized My X reservation because I have not been able to test drive one yet. I think the looks of the X are great for an SUV with great aerodynamics. Is there an SUV that has a lower CD? Well you can't have it all so if you don't like the looks don't buy one and quit complaining! Eventually drag will be important for all cars and they will start to look like MS and MX. We should all get used to it.

 

[TEG]

I don't know anything specific. Just recall watching Tesla in the days before Franz came on board. I think Henrik was already working on it. He provided something. They weren't happy with the end result, but may have already started to engineer a chassis around what he was proposing. I don't think Model S is 100% Franz. What fraction of Henrik's input remains may be debatable. Personally, I think there is a little of his design directions still lurking in the background.

Like I said, I think they are both great designers, so it is a great pedigree no matter the exact history.

Well, during the shareholder's meeting today, Franz basically said that they dumped Henrik's prototype in the garbage and started over...

 

[Johan]

Well, during the shareholder's meeting today, Franz basically said that they dumped Henrik's prototype in the garbage and started over...

He said, IIRC, that the first thing he did when he was hired is took a big forklift and lifted the Fisker prototype out of the design studio (a tent at the SpaceX facility) and took it away.