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SolarCity (SCTY)

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The idea that there's any grid rate twist that could be done in CA and not work out to SCTY's advantage is silly.

Solar is cheap and getting cheaper.
Net metering is locked in at totally acceptable rate.
Nothing will change for a couple years at which time batteries become a real option and SCTY becomes even MORE important to energy buyers.

I think it's safe to say CA is in great shape, gaining a foothold at the next tier of markets at a decent cost is the new hurdle.

Duck curve?

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Tesla and SolarEdge are good to go, but SolarCity is going to get disrupted by TOU and the duck curve.
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just what happens to midday TOU after 2 more years of 40% growth of solar in SCTY's largest customer state?
http://www.caiso.com/Documents/Briefing_DuckCurve_CurrentSystemConditions-ISOPresentation-July2015.pdf

Nevada is small fries, moving Californian SCTY customers to TOU is going to be great for Tesla, but will gut SCTY like a fish, my prediction is that SCTY shareholders are going to be crying (diluted) big time, but the SCTY bondholders will be laughing

Actually, TOU pretty much solves the duck problem by pricing power more appropriately. Is there a risk that power prices will go too low midday because of solar? Under flat rate pricing there is because ordinary ratepayers do not have an incentive to increase consumption. But under TOU, all sorts of ratepayers will gladly use air conditioning more liberally or charge their car in the midday if retail rates really are lower. So in this way all ratepayers are clearly benefiting from solar.

How about the duck head, the early evening peak. Ratepayers will easily avoid charging their car or running the clothes drier at that time. They will also cool their home earlier in the day instead of waiting till they get home to run the AC. Potential solar customers with west facing roofs will also be motivated to install panels, whereas under flat rates they had less motivation to do so.

So right off the bat, the answer to the duck curve is TOU. First, everyone can avail themselves of a little demand management, whether using fancy technology or common sense. Second, batteries and west facing panels can bring additional hardware to smooth things out. Specifically batteries will reduce solar export to the grid when midday prices are too low and reduce imports at the peaks.

If it is a zero sum game, who are the losers? Power producers are. Peak power plants are getting much smaller peaks to server. Baseload plants are particularly hit by low midday prices. That makes baseload unprofitable midday and midnight, leaving very little left to serve. So to the extent that TOU supports even net demand across the day, this would be of benefit to baseload at the expense of peak load. But longer term, TOU support even greater penetration of distributed solar which gets us to the place where baseload demand is disrupted.

The winner in all this is the consumer. When proper price signals reach consumers, demand can adjust appropriately and drive the whole market to greater economic efficiencies. Solar, storage and demand management are important contributors to that economic efficiency. Batteries can do a tremendous job in squeezing out inefficiencies and balancing supply and demand throughout the day. But the amount of storage that comes into service of this market will depend on how well the market compensates storage. A fairly mild TOU pricing scheme might not create big enough price spreads to compensate storage. Real time exposure to actual price changes in the wholesale market would go much further. Other schemes where storage is paid for standby capacity and other aggregated grid services may be needed to attract enough investment in storage. Such schemes may be thought of as subsidies and resented as such, but if the batteries are being called upon to provide grid services of genuine value, then it is simple compensation for service, and all ratepayers are the beneficiary of those services provided.

So in all this I see nothing threatening to rooftop solar. What I see are opportunities for solar, batteries and demand management to have an even bigger impact to the benefit of all ratepayers.
 
In structure finance products like an ABS, it is standard to set up multiple tranches to achieve a higher bond rating for the upper tranches. ...

What you, Fog, and Mule don't seem to understand is that there is no more capacity to sell tranches with high bond ratings. SCTY can no longer sell enough bonds and ABS at high enough prices to make it worth selling bonds at all. Yet every new install requires more cash than they can sell bonds to cover.

It doesn't matter that 99% of payments are being made by homeowners if the market won't lend you enough cash to install the systems. Reducing the rate of expansion won't be enough.

The balance sheet doesn't look that bad. They have some nice tech in use and in the pipeline. But they have few options to use it and the markets (both bond and equity) have figured that out.
 
Actually, TOU pretty much solves the duck problem by pricing power more appropriately.

Yes, and the CPUC plan is to phase TOU in for new solar customers so they use batteries and self consume in the evening. There will be no aggregation by solarcity because there is no battery capacity available to aggregate. PUCs will make sure electricity is self consumed through TOU pricing. The whole reason the duck head exists is residential electricity demand in the evening after sunset.

As the poster from OZ said, Tesla Energy looks to be in a good position with these changes. Solarcity not so much.

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..... Yet every new install requires more cash than they can sell bonds to cover.
......

SBENSON has tried to explain this squeeze, but with little success apparently. The fact that this condition exists suggest that they are not covering the expense of their growth through sales, which means they are undercapitalized for their size. The additional SCTY stock sold in 2014/15 was owned by the original investors as well as founders stock, and did not increase company assets.
 
Yes, and the CPUC plan is to phase TOU in for new solar customers so they use batteries and self consume in the evening. There will be no aggregation by solarcity because there is no battery capacity available to aggregate. PUCs will make sure electricity is self consumed through TOU pricing. The whole reason the duck head exists is residential electricity demand in the evening after sunset.

As the poster from OZ said, Tesla Energy looks to be in a good position with these changes. Solarcity not so much.

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SBENSON has tried to explain this squeeze, but with little success apparently. The fact that this condition exists suggest that they are not covering the expense of their growth through sales, which means they are undercapitalized for their size. The additional stock sold in 2014/15 was owned by the original investors, and did not increase company assets.


Facepalm... I rest my case. Please, all, read here on previous pages of this thread, or anywhere else about DER aggregation, demand response in the wholesale market to actually understand the dynamics of what's going to happen with Solarcity in the coming years.

Gridx webpage also is a great place to critique/support this approach as well.
 
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Have you looked at what 2.25/watt of total all in cost will look like at current 3.63/watt npv? Current numbers are based of 2.71/watt costs, but what does 2.25/watt look like?

also, they didn't include the net booked portion of contracts which has been trending at well over $1bln. So, if they are projecting to be well over $4bln npv in current contracted business, how does that affect non recourse debt ratio comparison?

my point is I think we have look at the full picture here. I know they are trying to work out the presentation/expectations/investor value for their briefs and quarterly briefs, but the reality still remains they are continuously creating big value for investors through and through in he real world right now. And we haven't even gotten to exploiting the full value of their business yet. It's like we are only looking at the tip of iceberg above water and thinking that's the endgame. We're not even close to monetizing the full value of what Solarcity is doing or where they are going.

also, look at what the misses are on these quarterlies and it's been really all about their efforts to expand commercial instslls which have more variable lead times do to government inspections and other non controllable government processes. Has nothing what so ever to do with demand, so it is very important to note this when evaluating quarterly numbers/guidance misses. Every single one of solarcity's ABS have been oversubscribed so clearly finance has more to do with timing then problems getting it. All I point out is we have to look at the context to know the reality as it relates to company health moving forward. Solarcity is very healthy in reality.

my assessment is solarcity's issues stem strictly from a investor relations problem as to opposed to business problem. They need to invest in better communications on the investor relations front. Someone needs to sit down and flesh out a clear way to communicate value and progress toward avhieving thst value, especially in our current bi-polar market world. They need to peak shave the market mood swings with a great hand holding message/process. To me, this messaging is the job of investor relations. Rive needs to take a look at how he can improve media/investor messaging and I feel well have less boo birds dominating the conversation in media/internet moving forward.

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Renim, what are those tou rates that will come in NEM 2.0? Please enlighten us, since you have an inside scoop on those not yet announced numbers. Also, any changes only happen after utilties hit there NEM 1.0 cap... Again, do you have some scoop on when those caps will be hit because no one else knows.

Good points. The 2015 shortfall in DevCo CF was about $821M on 870 MW inatalles or $0.95/W. Average cost for year was about $2.88/W. So reducing coat to $2.25/W would have glosed the gap by $0.63/W, leaving a gap of $0.32/W or $278M. Had the MyPower ABS Com a month earlier, that gaps would narrow to $94M.

There is a timing gap between booking and installation. I thinknit is about a quarter. So the sales costs for Q1 2016 hit cash flow in Q4 2016. Given that Q1 MW installed will be about 200 in 2016 and was 153 in 2015, I figure that this growth implies a sales cost carry of about $25M. That is, DevCo debt needed about $25M more to cover this timing issue. So it seems our gap of 821M can be whittled down to about $68 by reducing cost per Watt, getting better timing on ABS issuance and leveling out growth so there is not a sales cost carry. The big thing is getting the cost down. With that DevCo CF starts to get pretty managable.
 
Solar systems produce the lion's share of their energy during the day when most folks are at work. Since most homes will use the least amount of power when the residents are away, the excess power produced during this time may stored to batteries. Algorithms can be written for the inverters/controllers to optimize power flows. I would even go so far as to suggest they will updated via "over-the-air" updates. PUCs can certainly change TOU schedules, however intelligent control of power flows will be easily accomplished. My point is, we have the technology.

The strategic alliance between SolarCity, Tesla and SolarEdge is positioned to disrupt the utility business model.
 
Yes, it absolutely matters that 99% of all payments have been made "on time" because that's the very foundation for which to evaluate a good investment within the capital markets. This is how investors get paid, so even if Solarcity stops functioning, the deployed assets are still churning out revenue regardless. Try comparing this to mortgage or vehicle markets and, thus far under its small/limited exposure, the solar payments are performing much much better, highly competitive in the capital markets. As the solar assets gain time in along with scale(which both are happening with Solarcity assets) it will become even more differentiated as well as compelling to the capital markets. So, it matters a lot.
 
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What you, Fog, and Mule don't seem to understand is that there is no more capacity to sell tranches with high bond ratings. SCTY can no longer sell enough bonds and ABS at high enough prices to make it worth selling bonds at all. Yet every new install requires more cash than they can sell bonds to cover.

It doesn't matter that 99% of payments are being made by homeowners if the market won't lend you enough cash to install the systems. Reducing the rate of expansion won't be enough.

The balance sheet doesn't look that bad. They have some nice tech in use and in the pipeline. But they have few options to use it and the markets (both bond and equity) have figured that out.

You might take a look at slide 7 in the Q4 2015 Review. Asset financing for the year was $2.73/W. This comes quite close to covering the full cost of 2.83/W for the year. So about $0.10/W was left for shareholders to cover from other sources. Meanwhile the total value for the year was $3.77/W. Minus cost of $2.83/W, this is a gain of $0.94/W for which shareholders kicked in $0.10/W to close the asset financing gap. So this is actually not bad for what it covers, but it misses other stuff that make cash flow more challenging. Asset financing covers all but 3.5% of the asset financed.
 
Facepalm... I rest my case. Please, all, read here on previous pages of this thread, or anywhere else about DER aggregation, demand response in the wholesale market to actually understand the dynamics of what's going to happen with Solarcity in the coming years.

Gridx webpage also is a great place to critique/support this approach as well.


If you did understand the concepts, you would be able to take a solar user and explain specifically how that customer would be aggregated by solarcity under a TOU rate scheme. Of course you will not post a coherent explanation, because their is none.

Maybe another post about "disruption"?
 
Another tech company issuing $12B in debt this week. Who is this AAPL and should we be concerned about their model? Are profits waning? The next Nokia? How would a pending bankruptcy drag down Samsung?

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If you did understand the concepts, you would be able to take a solar user and explain specifically how that customer would be aggregated by solarcity under a TOU rate scheme. Of course you will not post a coherent explanation, because their is none.

Maybe another post about "disruption"?

This is what happens when you feed the troll. If you can't resist replying to FUD spray, you should consider the Ignore feature.
 
This is what happens when you feed the troll. If you can't resist replying to FUD spray, you should consider the Ignore feature.

electracity has been right for far longer than any one of the residents here, including me. Originally I fought him/her hard. I lost my shirt and he got to keep his. If he was infact a short all this while, he even made a killing. Diss him out at your own peril.

The things that we are discovering now, like: Retained Value is a manipulated number, cash flows are unsustainable are all the things people like Chanos understood far earlier. Show some respect to the other side if you want to not lose your undies.
 
I know we can't talk about this but I assume we can post quotes and links:



http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/02/16/3749765/bernie-sanders-nevada-solar-workers/



Note the emphasis on jobs. Inefficiency creates jobs. Concern about the environment and spending tax dollars wisely does not include rooftop solar. Nevada could more the twice the solar for the same cost doing large ground mount installations. They certainly have the empty land. They also have wind in the summer, which is may be even less expensive than utility scale solar.
 
Bonds are typically identified by their CUSIPs in US.

The Nov 2019 maturity bond's cusip is 83416TAC4.
The Nov 2018 maturity bond's cusip is 83416TAA8.

Some systems drop the last letter of the cusip and just go with the first 8 letters.

I tired to get my hands on these in the previous downturn but Interactive Brokers said they don't support trading in convertibles.

Please post here if anyone finds a way to buy these bonds. I haven't made up my mind if I want to buy them but it's a good idea to keep an eye on them.
 
electracity has been right for far longer than any one of the residents here, including me. Originally I fought him/her hard. I lost my shirt and he got to keep his. If he was infact a short all this while, he even made a killing. Diss him out at your own peril.

The things that we are discovering now, like: Retained Value is a manipulated number, cash flows are unsustainable are all the things people like Chanos understood far earlier. Show some respect to the other side if you want to not lose your undies.

Nonsense. Your posting includes actual analysis, this troll is throwing FUD at the wall to see what sticks. While I may find your analysis is irrationally pessimistic on solar and far too linear in nature, at least it's REAL and seems to come from sincere analytical opinion. It has been a fantastic base from which real constructive conversation can be built.

This poster's content has essentially consisted of "I'm short, and if you're not you're crazy". That's not adding value, that's just trying to push sentiment without adding anything to the thread. All it does is clog things up, bury actual topics and derail any momentum of actual conversation.

Just my opinion. As I mentioned, there's an Ignore function.
 
Without batteries there is no aggregation. With TOU and batteries, the electricity is used in the solar customer's home to offset the high rate at the duck's head.
I have solar and been on TOU rates for several years. California is installing lots of Utility level batteries and I hope it comes online soon enough to mitigate that 6pm to 8pm ramp up. I do all my charging and water heating after 10pm at super off peak rates. TOU rates have incentivize me to load shift.
 
I have solar and been on TOU rates for several years. California is installing lots of Utility level batteries and I hope it comes online soon enough to mitigate that 6pm to 8pm ramp up. I do all my charging and water heating after 10pm at super off peak rates. TOU rates have incentivize me to load shift.

California wants batteries behind the meter sooner rather than later, which is smart. They don't want to run into the situation of having very low sunny day prices and then a massive spike in the ducks head each evening in the summer.

The context of batteries in this investment thread is solarcity's ability to aggregate those batteries and sell the power.
 
The idea that there's any grid rate twist that could be done in CA and not work out to SCTY's advantage is silly.

Solar is cheap and getting cheaper.
Net metering is locked in at totally acceptable rate.
........./QUOTE]
Net metering may be locked in but the IOUs in California will continue to lobby the PUC for fixed charges and shifts in TOU rate periods. One shift SCE recently made was in the peak rate period to 2pm until 8pm. That put more of my solar production out of the peak. That will incentivize new installs to orient more to the west. To me that is fair, because that follows the load.
 
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