Sold my Model S after 5.5 years...moving on

[2101Guy]

My 2016 MS 60D that I charge to a 100% all the time since new gives me a projected 205/206 miles everytime. I have a HPWC at home in my garage and I was fortunate enough that my job installed a HPWC charger and another regular charger for non-tesla cars at our office. So my car is always fully charged whether I'm going to work or going home from work.

We've driven my MS60D all over, including 3 trips from NY to Florida (twice to Orlando and once to Key West) as well as several trips up and down the I-95 (NY-DC; NY-Maine; NY-RI, etc). Outside of those roadtrips, I never needed to supercharge on my daily home-work commute despite the Paramus, NJ Supercharger being along my daily commute.

Quite frankly, I've never heard of this throttling issue until this thread. My MS has well over 80k miles in almost 4 years and I do plan on trading it up for a newer MS, but throttling will not be the reason. I'm waiting for the plaid powertrain.

Maybe this is quite a fan boy statement, but I just don't see myself in a modern gas car after driving EVs, particularly Tesla's. We kept my wife's Mini Cooper S Convertible with a 6 speed manual for when we miss rowing gears but it's now just a Summer Sunday car.

For any Lithium Ion battery, charging to 100% reguarly isn't optimal for best battery life/long term performance. And based on your needs, you most likely only have to charge a couple times a week to 80%. You'd get same overall experience, but with better battery life over time.

that said, to each his/her own in decisions like this. either way, sounds like you are truly enjoying the car which is the main thing

 

[2101Guy]

This is a koolaid drinkers response.
Are ICE advertised with a fueling rate and in some cases as road trip fueling free for life?
Please cite an example and what the response was when fueling speed was slowed.

Maybe a closer analogy would be the VW owners who had to accept software updates to fix dieselgate that compensated people or bought back cars that lost performance and economy.

Suppose you think that was wrong for VW to face consequences?

technically speaking, over time? ICE cars lose horsepower and fuel efficiency with normal usage/normal wear/tear of internal engine components.

 

[MXLRplus]

I'm not sure if people are looking at this right. I'm trying to find an ICE equivalent to this scenario. But last time I checked, there were no ICE vehicles that came with free gas?

Buy a $20k car. Buy $30k in solar. At 100,000 miles, the gasoline+car+insurance will be wildly cheaper than any EV even at $5/gallon.

I love EVs and have driven most of them so far (the Taycan is my next to evaluate), and I'm driving our 5th EV. But I fully understand what is available in 2020 in the way of personal transportation. People like to compare a Tesla to a 2010 Prius. Things have changed more in the last 10 years, than the previous 25 years. Even the Prius.

 

[esrandl]

OP,

Can empathize. Had a 2013 P85 with over 85k miles. Had a battery pack failure (replaced free) and figured it was a good time to sell given charging speeds, etc.

I got a new M3P end of June. Have to say IT IS AWESOME. Charges unbelievably fast, way faster than my P85 even when charging speeds weren't capped. Totally understand why you moved on, but the original Model S is a bit old tech wise and even though I disagree with what occured with capping supercharger speed... it's still an old car and newer models (of whatever) are likely better. The browser and other apps were practically unuseable due to processing speeds, etc.

Anyways, point is: eventually any car becomes an old car and will never measure up to the newer stuff. Don't let it discourage you or others from the newer products. Do you remember how people waited in lines for iPhone 5S? People laugh at those phones now and they are only 5 years old!

I do miss the free unlimited supercharging...

 

[eye.surgeon]

Eye - I know you have been around awhile and an enthusiastic owner.

Just a random question, how much roadtripping (long enough to require supercharging) did you do with 40k in 5.5 years?

I am coming up on 5 years and 83k. I have supercharged a couple of times since chargegate and it was slow (haven't really confirmed anything - one time the battery was freezing). I didn't really need it so I just drove on. I am not a huge supercharger anyway.

We have a 3LR in the house now and compared to my 70D even at full charge speed, it wins out. So any really long trip, we take the 3.

I would just make the argument that you spent more time shopping for that new car and filling it with gas then you ever spent supercharging. I do understand the frustration though. Just not sure that it was rational. You could always go to a rental car for long trips. Financially and time wise a better option for sure. By financially - better than buying a new car.

My 70D might be a city car but it is a fantastic one and depreciating very slowly at this point. And it takes me to almost anywhere I travel with any regularity - like 150 miles to our beach house or 170 miles to the in-laws.

So break down the math for me. How many hours waiting at superchargers in the year since throttling? And how much excess depreciation are you paying for every day now? And when is your first service visit on the new car?

I get that I might be labeled a fanboy. I just think your case would be better made if you made 400 mile trips once a month. And maybe you do and bike to the office. Chargegate is frustrating for sure and it lowered the value of my car probably $5k but that doesn't make me want to spend $50k to get over it. Especially not when the income outlook is less rosy for the next year....

Your point about how often I really need fast supercharging is a good one. Obviously with 43k miles after 5.5 years I wasn't road tripping a lot. Part of the frustration was psychological, knowing that I couldn't on the occasion that I needed to. The other part of my decision to sell was my suspicion that as the reality of supercharger speed capping on older cars becomes more widely known, their values will drop significantly.

As for the cost of selling and buying a new car, without getting into specifics, I bought a new car for what I sold the Tesla for. Basically I traded a 5.5 year old car off warranty for a new car with a new car warranty. I wont' get into the specifics of the car because that always seems to trigger people here but as I mentioned it's not an EV-- you can get amazing deals on cars right now because of the Covid-19 economy. I will own another Tesla someday.

 

[gigawatt1010]

For any Lithium Ion battery, charging to 100% reguarly isn't optimal for best battery life/long term performance. And based on your needs, you most likely only have to charge a couple times a week to 80%. You'd get same overall experience, but with better battery life over time.

that said, to each his/her own in decisions like this. either way, sounds like you are truly enjoying the car which is the main thing

My 60D is technically a 75D with software limitation. So charging to 100% on my 60D is not 100% for the battery. Thanks, you're 100% correct, it boils down to his/her own situations. It's not a one size fit all.

 

[sorka]

For any Lithium Ion battery, charging to 100% reguarly isn't optimal for best battery life/long term performance. And based on your needs, you most likely only have to charge a couple times a week to 80%. You'd get same overall experience, but with better battery life over time.

that said, to each his/her own in decisions like this. either way, sounds like you are truly enjoying the car which is the main thing

Except that if you only ever need to charge to 80%, then there's no reason to be capped. You'll get the same battery life if you charge to your needed range for local travel without maxing it out whether tesla limits you or not.

But if you need that max range 3 or 4 times a year, it's not going to significantly degrade the battery either but if Tesla caps you from EVER doing it then your car is now useless for those not often needed but essential times when a maximum charge is required.

Tesla sold the car with a warning. The more you charge to max or near max, the faster the battery will degrade. They left it to the user to CHOOSE based on their route requirements how often to do this. You might be fine with rapid degradation if the car gets you to where you need vs never being able to get you there at all with the choice taken away.

I'm at 114K miles on my P85D. I've lost 13 miles of range since new. I charge to 90% daily. I charge to 100% when I have to but only when I have to. Sometimes it's 97% or 95% or 99%. But the point is that I do that when I must and only when I must. It's not often enough that it has degraded my battery. I'm really happy with my range at my current mileage.

I'm still on V8. I'll probably be capped when I'm forced to update at the end of this month. I'll most definitely be pissed if that happens.

 

[gigawatt1010]

This is a koolaid drinkers response.
Are ICE advertised with a fueling rate and in some cases as road trip fueling free for life?
Please cite an example and what the response was when fueling speed was slowed.

Maybe a closer analogy would be the VW owners who had to accept software updates to fix dieselgate that compensated people or bought back cars that lost performance and economy.

Suppose you think that was wrong for VW to face consequences?

I knew I was going to incite that type of response. I'm merely trying to understand what the deal was. And all these responses validates what I said on my post above. Everyone has different take on this, I personally am not getting in a bind since I'm still using it the way I did when it was new. If Tesla is throttling the free s/c speed that they continue to give me, since I don't use it much, I didn't affect me.

Buying this in 2016, I knew it was a technology purchase built to be obselete. I don't complain that my Motorola Razr from the mid-2000's doesn't take 12MP pictures and can't download apps.

 

[Electric700]

I've loved my S85, but when Tesla with no explanation or notice capped my supercharging speed to less than half the former speed with a software update almost a year ago as has been done to most if not all older cars. that was it for me. My car is now a city car. Long trips are not practical when it takes 90+ minutes to supercharge. My car only had 40k miles on it when this was done.

You can peruse the chargegate threads, all 500+ pages of them, for the reason why Tesla is doing this but the bottom line is that it's to avoid battery failures during the warranty period. The equivalent would be for GM to disable 4 cylinders in your Corvette via an unannounced software update to reduce engine failures under warranty.

I've loved my Tesla and hope to be back someday when Tesla can guarantee reasonable charge rates for the life of the battery pack. Car is sold and new car is in the garage. Not going to get into what I got because I don't want to turn this thread into a Tesla superfan hatefest but it's not an EV.

Sorry to see you had that issue and didn't get a Tesla or other EV. Mine is beyond 5 years old and I don't have slow Supercharging issues, but I generally Supercharge when needed just a few times a month. Some people may Supercharge much more frequently with their older cars. I suspect there are others with older cars that don't have slow Supercharger issues. As mentioned before, you could have traded in for a Model 3 or may be the bigger Y, both of which support 250 kW V3 Supercharging to the best of my knowledge.

 

[OrbiterTI4]

Im going on 4. Not capped.

Based on your previous post stating 2017 S90D, you are at most at 3.25 yrs? I would have expected you to have been hit - what is the peak rate you are seeing, and how long does it stay at that rate? I did a test this past Jan, starting at 15%ish and did hit 120kW for a couple of seconds at the start, with a dropdown to 75 kW in the first minute and a steady drop after that (I quit my test after 15 min, I was in the 60s at that point and nowhere near my charge limit).

I'm not sure if people are looking at this right. I'm trying to find an ICE equivalent to this scenario. But last time I checked, there were no ICE vehicles that came with free gas?

(Cost paid to supercharge) != (reasonable expectation of degradation), particularly when set(being degraded) != set(included with purchase price).

 

[SO16]

How are you going on 4 when the M3 came out in 2018? That's what @SSSimon is referring to.

My 2016 75D isn't capped yet and even if it was (I've seen 120 kw charge speeds for 5 - to 10 mins), for the times I have to supercharge on a trip, I always time it with a stop for coffee/food/washroom break, so the potential increased charging time should not have much impact.

I am referring to my S. I don’t have a 3. We are in the S forum. If anything, the 3 will be better off than the S.

[EDIT] As @glide so eloquently pointed out to me, I shouldn’t have replied to the point about the 3 while using an S as an example without clarifying. Apologies.]

 

[SSedan]

My car was 257miles at 100% at 65k 2.5 years ago.
In the time since it has dropped to somewhere between 239-242 at 95k. I do not supercharger much maybe 2-3 sub-700mile trips a year.
Maybe the previous owner did supercharge more but I am not abusing it.

 

[SO16]

Let’s translate this into other experiences. Say you buy a new house in a new development, everything under warranty. At some time some of your neighbors have a problem that their front door starts making a squeaky noise when you open it. Some think it is an indication the front door unit should be replaced. The builder doesn’t reveal what they know.

The builder, unilaterally, makes a change to every front door so it takes 5 minutes to open or close, but remains quiet. Doesn’t give you a choice about the change, doesn’t warn you the change will be made.

Would that be ok? Just the risk of being an early adopter? Or a dodge to avoid warranty obligations?

Did you not read my last paragraph you quoted from me? I don’t like how Tesla handled it. But no one should be surprised that an early production vehicle “could” have unforeseen issues.

squeaky door vs preventing possible fire. I’d be okay with it if the change is to prevent a potentially really bad issue.

 

[SSedan]

I am referring to my S. I don’t have a 3. We are in the S forum. If anything, the 3 will be better off than the S.

Till it isn't, everyone was touting the low degradation of the S till software knocked off a bunch of range and wrecked supercharging speed.

 

[mtndrew1]

Thank you for your posts over the years, I’ve generally found them measured and insightful.

Good luck with your new ride and hope to see you back here someday!

 

[SO16]

Based on your previous post stating 2017 S90D, you are at most at 3.25 yrs? I would have expected you to have been hit - what is the peak rate you are seeing, and how long does it stay at that rate? I did a test this past Jan, starting at 15%ish and did hit 120kW for a couple of seconds at the start, with a dropdown to 75 kW in the first minute and a steady drop after that (I quit my test after 15 min, I was in the 60s at that point and nowhere near my charge limit).



(Cost paid to supercharge) != (reasonable expectation of degradation), particularly when set(being degraded) != set(included with purchase price).

correct. my car is a Jan 2017 build. So far I haven’t noticed any difference.

 

[SmartElectric]

I've loved my Tesla and hope to be back someday when Tesla can guarantee reasonable charge rates for the life of the battery pack. Car is sold

Charge rates? That's your key complaint? Seems non-logical considering your limited mileage usage.

At less than 8000 miles per year, I'm glad your car is going to a new owner, truly hoping the new owner is switching from a gas car and drives much higher mileage, and therefore the benefits to the overall environment will be greater, in that the Tesla will be used for it's designed purpose, high daily commuting mileage.

In terms of decisions that benefit the environment, I have a short commute and drive very little like you do, so I bought a Smart ED, the car with the smallest footprint of emissions from materials, production until end of life. Hopefully you also bought a very modestly sized gas powered car with a low emissions profile for the very small amount of driving you do. Good fortune!

As a 2013 Tesla S85 owner, we're thrilled with our car, still charges 90 kW max in hot weather, 97% original battery capacity.

 

[glide]

exactly how much do you expect to receive, and how long are you willing to wait? My guess is that OP assumes (as do I) that whatever the amount, it’s not worth holding onto and being unhappy for an unknown amount of time. Life’s too short, move on.

5 figures and until the end of 2020

 

[glide]

Im going on 4. Not capped.

You have a 4 year old model 3? I don’t think so.

 

[glide]

technically speaking, over time? ICE cars lose horsepower and fuel efficiency with normal usage/normal wear/tear of internal engine components.

It’s doesn’t take me an additional 40 minutes to fill my gas tank though.