Some exciting observations about the new Model S60 (software limited 75 kWh)

[MikeKFE]

That's some horrible luck. I was worried it needed some mechanical repairs already.

Well it needs that too. I'm dropping it off at Tesla next week:
The sunroof opens very shaky the first few inches.
The front door handles aren't quite aligned so the paint under the handles is chipping.
The rubber around the rear windows isn't installed right.
The Velcro under the driver's floor mat came unglued.
I think there are one or two additional items but I can't recall off the top of my head.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

Damn, I thought they had the Model S all dialed in. I guess they dial them in after delivery. Good thing my service center is near by.

 

[emir-t]

Well it needs that too. I'm dropping it off at Tesla next week:
The sunroof opens very shaky the first few inches.
The front door handles aren't quite aligned so the paint under the handles is chipping.
The rubber around the rear windows isn't installed right.
The Velcro under the driver's floor mat came unglued.
I think there are one or two additional items but I can't recall off the top of my head.

Wow, I thought they got way over production issues in 2016. I was very confident in the build quality of the S at least in this second half of 2016. I know of someone who has a misaligned lift gate in their 2015 P85D and their tail lights are fogging up with moisture and the sunroof has a pool. Service centre in Munich patched the sunroof but it didn't help, tail lights are worse after service and they said they couldn't do a thing about misaligned lift gate.

I also know someone with a 2016 P90D built April '16, build quality was perfect. So I'm surprised you have issues with a 60D.

 

[MikeKFE]

Damn, I thought they had the Model S all dialed in. I guess they dial them in after delivery. Good thing my service center is near by.

Yeah, the Denver service center is literally 2.5 miles from my office.

 

[ggnykk]

Do we need more data? I'd be happy to run my 60D down and hit up the Newark supercharger for some data. If this is still needed/wanted someone please quote me or @ me here and I'll schedule a time to do it.

We need more data. We basically need to know the kw (volt x amp) number in every 10% increment state of charge.

 

[ggnykk]

Hi, I'm on my new Model S 60 for 4 days, and I've noticed some good bits about this new Model s60:

1. You can safely charge to 100% all the time, that confirmation is from the orientation session with Tesla technician.
That means for daily usage, normal Tesla car's follow a guideline of charge around 80-90% percentage for battery longevity. This won't pose such problem on new S60. because a full charge on new S60 is only 80% of full battery, that's exactly the same percentage follow Tesla's longevity recommendation.

For daily charge considering battery longevity range comparison:
S90 is charged with 80%-90% limit only provides 72 kWh - 81 kWh range.
old S70 is charged with 80%-90% limit only provides 56 kWh - 63 kWh range.
new S60 can always give you a full 60 kWh range.

2. I went to Supercharger twice, a documented charging time shows:

went with 16 Mi left, shared a superchager port with another Model X:

View attachment 185849

It started charging from 6:30pm, and fully charged on 7:29pm, so I'd say 1 hour is almost enough to get a full charge on S60, and 40 min will give you 80% for sure.

Tesla do need to update their app though, it still shows 1 hour and 40 minutes for full charge. on car it shows 1 hour and 20 minutes.

The amperage I see is varies from 180a to 244a which is lot better than old s60 which cap around 170a

View attachment 185838 View attachment 185839 View attachment 185841 View attachment 185843 View attachment 185842

So, it's a big plus for this new 75 kWh disguised 60: the charge time is matching with 90 kWh version.

Reading from previous report: Supercharging Tesla Model S 60 kWh Versus 85 kWh - Video + Graphs

The old S60 is a lot slower. The new S60 battery is smaller but will get your cars full charge quicker. S90 does come with bigger battery, but it will need 1 hour and half to get a fully charge, and you can drive to your next supercharger half hour faster, so no time lose here.

3. It shows 60 kWh in all places in car, but you can access unlock 75 kWh online in Tesla website if you need and have money to spare later:


View attachment 185836

4, I haven't tried wall charger yet, but 48a in a single charger configuration is well suited for the S60, you don't really need a dual charger 72a upgrade for it. for comparison, the old charger is 40a, and dual charger provides up to 80a it's already fast enough with single charger.

Hope this can help you to decide~

So according to the 5 screen shots that you show, the fastest charging speed you ever got was 75 kw (319 x 234 / 1000) even at very low SOC. That is really slow.

 

[ggnykk]

@privater: thanks for sharing your charging data.

I took the time and range values from your original post and threw them into Excel. Almost perfectly linear increase in range over time, but most importantly, very minimal tapering at the top end. Great news for new S60 / S60D owners.


View attachment 189283

Charging rate is all about Power (unit is kw). This is the wrong graph. Come on guys, you can't own EV without knowing Power [watt] = current [amp] x voltage [v].

kw = (amp x v) /1000.

Some people also confused "miles/hour" on the screen means charging rate, which is wrong also. The "miles/hour" is NOT an instantaneous number, it is just an average over the entire charging session. Power in kw is instantaneous number, and this is the number you should be looking at. Not the amps, not the volt, not "miles/hour". All the reports about "i am not seeing much slow down near 100%", I kind of doubt the newbies here even know what they are talking about. Show us all the data in kw, then we will know for sure.

By the way, why is couple of the supercharging test done here actually shared the same charger with another Tesla?? You can't park next to an empty spot to do a real test?

 

[privater]

So according to the 5 screen shots that you show, the fastest charging speed you ever got was 75 kw (319 x 234 / 1000) even at very low SOC. That is really slow.

Best I've seen with standalone stall is around 96kw from lower 10% to 40%, due to this fourm limitation, I can't edit and show you my latest findings.

By the way, why is couple of the supercharging test done here actually shared the same charger with another Tesla?? You can't park next to an empty spot to do a real test?

California is such a crowded place, What can I say. People waiting in queue for 30 minutes for a charge. No luxury to get a standalone stall for test.
From Bjørn Nyland's video, Top 10 busiest supercharger at that time 6 are in California.

waiting for a spot is pretty norm here if you ask me.

So please ask nicely, I'm sure someone have time to answer your question.

 

[Xenius]

We need more data. We basically need to know the kw (volt x amp) number in every 10% increment state of charge.

Alright, will attempt a burn down to near zero and sit with the car for the charging. Going to use Newark, DE for the test.

 

[Xenius]

So I didn't have time to do this last night. I'm doing a trip up to upstate NY this weekend, so I'll log some data while we're charging. I may not be able to get all 10% increments, but I'll log what I can. Stay tuned.

 

[emir-t]

So I didn't have time to do this last night. I'm doing a trip up to upstate NY this weekend, so I'll log some data while we're charging. I may not be able to get all 10% increments, but I'll log what I can. Stay tuned.

Thanks for doing this. Could you also share with us SoC % used vs. energy used in kWh? Longer and more uninterrupted its driven the better. I wonder if the usable part of the 60D is actually 60kWh or ~55kWh.

 

[Xenius]

Being with the wife for our trip this weekend I wasn't able to take the data I wanted. I'm currently sitting at 25% charge or so right now. I may pop down to Newark after work today depending on traffic (it's *sugar* around here and school just started).

Anyway, here's some screenshots from the SuperCharger at the Albany, NY supercharger.

Certainly seemed to be some sort of taper going on here.

 

[Xenius]

And here are some shots from the Newburg, NY supercharger.

Obligatory ugly dog in the back, in her mobile suite.

 

[Chopr147]

LOOKS LIKE YOUR DOG IS GIVING YOU THE "TALK TO THE PAW" LOOK
AHHHHH! sorry for screaming but I don't feel like going back and changing to lower case

We use some of the same SC's . I'll be charging at Albany tomorrow. Nice mall there.

 

[emir-t]

I can't believe how they charge these all the way up to 4.2V per cell (4.2 * 84 = 352V pack level) Could there be dead cells left around 60%-ish so they don't die while they wait to become 75kwh pack if they do at all? But that doesn't explain supercharger's lack of tapering like on the 75.

Some folks here suggested that reaching 4.2 charging voltage doesn't mean 100% but I researched very thoroughly and nothing even on battery university state the difference between resting voltage and charging voltage. Every charging voltage and % graph I've seen for batteries seem to be above 95% prior to reaching top voltage. The rest is classical lithium battery trickle charge anyway.

I wish someone could explain.

 

[joeytree]

Sorry if it's already been said, but I thought I'd offer some practical advice. I live in north NJ. We just picked up our 60D this past weekend (yay!), but have owned a 2013 LEAF for the last 3+ years. We always charged the LEAF to 100%, and still have all 12 of the capacity bars. I'm guessing this is because the daily round-trip work commute uses anywhere from 60-70% in the warm months and 70-80% in the cold months. So the car doesn't typically sit at over 80% for long. So if your daily commute uses a sufficient amount of the battery, charging to 100% routinely should be fine. Otherwise just charge to 80%. You get no benefit to charging higher and only have potential negatives. So why risk it when it's so easy to reset the charging limit on the phone app when needed?

 

[MP3Mike]

I can't believe how they charge these all the way up to 4.2V per cell (4.2 * 84 = 352V pack level)

I think the problem is that you are looking at the charging voltage which is almost always higher than the actual cell voltage once charging is stopped. To get the actual pack/cell voltage I think you would need someone with a CAN logger.

 

[decrypt]

Sorry if it's already been said, but I thought I'd offer some practical advice. I live in north NJ. We just picked up our 60D this past weekend (yay!), but have owned a 2013 LEAF for the last 3+ years. We always charged the LEAF to 100%, and still have all 12 of the capacity bars. I'm guessing this is because the daily round-trip work commute uses anywhere from 60-70% in the warm months and 70-80% in the cold months. So the car doesn't typically sit at over 80% for long. So if your daily commute uses a sufficient amount of the battery, charging to 100% routinely should be fine. Otherwise just charge to 80%. You get no benefit to charging higher and only have potential negatives. So why risk it when it's so easy to reset the charging limit on the phone app when needed?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this is due to a fundamental difference between Tesla and other EV manufacturers... Tesla actually permits you to make use of 100% of your battery if you so choose to do so. This is compared with nearly every other EV, including the Nissan Leaf and the BMW i3. In the case of the 24kWh Leaf, the cars systems actively manage things such that about 21.3 kWh is treated as 100% where in reality it's closer to 90%. It reserves/manages in this manner specifically for battery longitivity. Where as I think Tesla is treating us like adults, warning us about the tribulations of excessive charging, but letting us make our own decisions...

 

[ggnykk]

Being with the wife for our trip this weekend I wasn't able to take the data I wanted. I'm currently sitting at 25% charge or so right now. I may pop down to Newark after work today depending on traffic (it's *sugar* around here and school just started).

Anyway, here's some screenshots from the SuperCharger at the Albany, NY supercharger.

View attachment 193327 View attachment 193328 View attachment 193329 View attachment 193330 View attachment 193331

Certainly seemed to be some sort of taper going on here.

60 kw charging speed at 85% SOC is pretty good.

 

[Ingineer]

I think that they are bottom limiting the new packs. This would explain how they can still balance a software limited pack, because it can still go to true 100%. This also means that 100% is really 100%, and you shouldn't do this daily. Ignore what the DS and Tesla Techs say, they are not engineers and have been proven to spew all kinds of incorrect information.

I'll start gathering proof for this as I can.

For now, an older 70 would be at about 343V when charged to 90%. I'll do some tests on a new 75 and see what it's voltages are, and then all we need is someone to report on a new 60.

Before anyone says it, the new battery cells can take a much higher charge rate, which explains why there is less taper.