Some P85Ds being delivered with non-staggered wheels

[dennis]

Good question.

For a short while it appears Tesla was out of 9" wide 21" wheels and so shipped a square setup. The title implies that this is still the case, which it is not.

"Some P85D shipped in Feb 2015 with non-staggered 21" wheels" or something like that.

I was at the Fremont Delivery Center on the last day of March and all of the P85D's that I saw waiting to be delivered had a square setup with the Conti's. So I don't think it was limited to February.

It would be interesting to know if the recent deliveries of P85D's are all staggered or if there continues to be a mix of square and staggered setups.

 

[Denarius]

Interesting.

maybe change it to

"Some P85Ds being delivery with non-staggered wheels."

 

[dennis]

I inquired about this while I was at the Fremont store today and was told by a reliable source that Tesla no longer has a "policy statement" about what tires are delivered with the 21" wheel option on the P85D. Both the square Continental and staggered Michelin setups are approved to be used on the car. New production is delivered with whichever of these tire options is currently available in inventory.

 

[dcohen]

I inquired about this while I was at the Fremont store today and was told by a reliable source that Tesla no longer has a "policy statement" about what tires are delivered with the 21" wheel option on the P85D. Both the square Continental and staggered Michelin setups are approved to be used on the car. New production is delivered with whichever of these tire options is currently available in inventory.

When you are purchasing a 125k sports car, you should expect staggered tires and there should not be a change of spec's, after being told they would be staggered.

 

[3mp_kwh]

I inquired about this while I was at the Fremont store today and was told by a reliable source that Tesla no longer has a "policy statement" about what tires are delivered with the 21" wheel option on the P85D. Both the square Continental and staggered Michelin setups are approved to be used on the car. New production is delivered with whichever of these tire options is currently available in inventory.

With feedback that 245 Michelins have 1" more width, than 245 Conti's (and I'm well aware this can happen between brands/models), I wonder are 265 staggered Michelins 2" wider, than "square Continental"?

 

[mattwhite]

I ordered my P85D this week. I was initially told by the guy at the Tesla store in Houston that it would come with the staggered setup/PS2s, which is what I want. I asked him to confirm this. He is now telling me that the staggered setup has been discontinued and it is impossible to get. So I then told him I want to buy 2 - 21 x 9 rear wheels and he's looking into that. I'm assuming these wheels exist and are available (owners who already have the staggered setup might need replacement wheels occasionally so they must stock them).

If Tesla won't sell me a couple of 21 x 9 rear wheels, then I'm probably out on this car. I'll be honest, I'm a few days in on the whole Tesla experience and I'm impressed in some ways and frustrated in others. I've never bought a car where I didn't know when I ordered it what size wheels/tires were going to show up. And the fact that Tesla is apparently communicating several versions of why the staggered setup is currently unavailable and whether or not it will come back is extremely frustrating.

 

[andrewket]

I encourage you to read the threads from the many P85+ and P85D owners who have swapped out of the staggered setup or have moved to 19's. The staggered 21's are not worth it, either from a cosmetic perspective (personal choice) or a performance/cost perspective imho.

If you really have your heart set on it, accept delivery with non staggered 21's and swap with someone who has them who is trying to get out. You'll both be happy.

 

[mattwhite]

I encourage you to read the threads from the many P85+ and P85D owners who have swapped out of the staggered setup or have moved to 19's. The staggered 21's are not worth it, either from a cosmetic perspective (personal choice) or a performance/cost perspective imho.

If you really have your heart set on it, accept delivery with non staggered 21's and swap with someone who has them who is trying to get out. You'll both be happy.

Yeah I've tried to read every thread on this issue. Dennis's comments earlier in this thread about running the square setup then reverting to the staggered and noticing the improvement in handling was extremely helpful.

To me the square setup has three issues. First, aesthetics, which admittedly is very personal. To me the car just does not look nearly as good with the skinnier 245 rear section tires. I personally couldn't live with that look and I'm also not a huge aftermarket wheel guy either (unless I'm going with track wheels, which I'm obviously not going to need with this car) so that is not a solution for me.

Secondly, I've never been a huge fan of Continental tires. I've had them on Porsches and BMWs I've owned in the past and I've always ditched them ASAP, usually for Michelins. Add the fact that they are marketed as "silent," which I can't help but believe means a compromise in some other area (probably weight and handling). I'm also not that concerned about tire wear - my daily drivers are usually BMW M cars and I'm lucky to get 5,000 miles out of a set of rears on those.

Finally, while I may be wrong on this, I cannot believe that the square setup is the optimal setup for handling on this car, given the 50/50 weight bias. I know of no other performance car (either RWD or AWD) that comes with a square setup. I'm guessing that Tesla has made this switch to streamline the supply chain, allow for tire rotation and try to make the ride quieter. That's fine, and it probably works better for most owners, but I'm one of those outliers who doesn't care that much about tire wear or tire rotation and can live with a bit more noise, but does definitely care about optimal handling.

My DS came up with a solution. I'm going to order the car with the basic 19" and pay my service center directly for the staggered wheels/tires and they will put them on when my car arrives. While this ends up being about $1,700 more than if they were available from Tesla when ordering the car, it guarantees that I get the staggered setup and I'll probably be able to unload the 19"s with tires for about $1,000, so it only ends up being about $700 or so extra, which is worth it in my book.

 

[mgboyes]

I know a couple of UK reservation holders who have asked for their P85D builds to be put on hold until they get clarity on this issue, having driven P85D test cars with square and staggered setups back to back and experienced a very noticeable difference in steering communication, balance and general handling in the bends. 0-60 in a straight line of course it makes no difference at all, but in cornering I am told the difference is like night and day.

I'm waiting for a test drive opportunity myself.

 

[pax]

My P85D was delivered on May 8th 2015 with the square setup. I had specifically asked for the staggered, yet I still drove the car away that day. I had had enough of waiting to get it. I am now going to go back to the SC and ask about this and see if they honor my original request.

 

[Uncle Paul]

It may be that going to an additional motor up front has changed the balance of the car with additional weight on the front tires. Some of the people I have spoken to with RWD only Teslas (non P) mentioned that their front ends would not feel planted in curves, and that carrying a couple hundred pounds in the frunk make it feel significantly better.

Since Tesla has a test track adjacent to their faciility I would suppose that they have sorted all this out, and have their reasons for going with a square setup on the new D's

 

[dcohen]

My P85D was delivered on May 8th 2015 with the square setup. I had specifically asked for the staggered, yet I still drove the car away that day. I had had enough of waiting to get it. I am now going to go back to the SC and ask about this and see if they honor my original request.

I just took delivery this past weekend on a P85D, with a square set-up. I love the car but was very frustrated with Tesla that they made this change. I test drove staggered, and have always had that setup on my past cars. They tell me there is nothing they can do, and after there testing this is a better set-up. Not happy about this.

 

[mattwhite]

I suppose Tesla has much more to factor in when determining tire/wheel sizes and compounds than the average manufacturer of sport sedans. Road noise and rolling resistance become much more important to most people when the car is powered by batteries. I'm guessing that Tesla thinks the 245 square setup with the Contis is the best compromise given all available factors (road noise, rolling resistance, wear, handling, rotation, etc.). Is it the best handling setup though? Absent a back to back test, that will be hard to determine but generally more rubber on the ground will improve overall lap speed.

I've seen posts here that say reducing the size of the rear tire from 265 to 245 will make the car less prone to understeer, but that's not necessarily accurate. Cars can have different tendencies to understeer or oversteer at different times in the same corner. For example, I owned a 997 Porsche 991S. On initial turn-in, it understeered like a pig. The front tires were 235 section and the rears were 295s. So why not just make the rear tires smaller to reduce the understeer? Well, do that and once you do get the car turned in and get back on the throttle, the rear end will have much more of a tendency to step out on you. Porsche made a compromise because all decisions about tire and wheel size as they affect handling are compromises to some degree.

My guess is that reducing the size of the rear tires and wheels on the P85D probably means the car will understeer a bit less at turn-in on slower corners, but will be less able to put the power down coming out of corners and probably less confidence inspiring in mid to fast corners. I'm not saying there will be a massive difference but I bet it is noticeable. This is a complicated issue because the car has electronics that will probably intervene as you get close to the limit (traction and stability control). It also has torque vectoring between the front and rear motors (maybe the dual motors allow for some sort of magic balancing that renders tire size less important than normal, who knows?). My guess, however, is that because of the additional rubber on the ground, the staggered setup with PS2s will have a higher threshold before the electronics start to cut in, especially after you've got the car turned in and also in higher speed corners.

Who's got both sets and wants to run a few laps at their local track and report back? I'm definitely going to test the limits of mine on the track when I get it but I won't have the 245 Contis to compare the staggered setup to.

 

[NOLA_Mike]

I think you guys are reading too much into this as far as why Tesla is switching back and forth between the staggered setup and square. I think the only tire manufacturer that makes the 265/35ZR21 tires is Michelin and when Michelin can't supply enough tires to keep the assembly line moving you get the square setup.

But that's just my mostly uninformed opinion.

Mike

 

[dennis]

I believe that the better handling of the staggered setup vs. the square one has a lot more to do with the Michelin PS2's than the extra 20mm of rear tire width. So one approach is to sell the Continentals and mount 245/35 Michelin PS2's or Pilot Super Sports all the way around. Better handling and possibly a little less understeer.

 

[mattwhite]

I think you guys are reading too much into this as far as why Tesla is switching back and forth between the staggered setup and square. I think the only tire manufacturer that makes the 265/21ZR35 tires is Michelin and when Michelin can't supply enough tires to keep the assembly line moving you get the square setup.

Have they moved back and forth? I thought the just moved from the 265s PS2s to the 245 square Contis. Have not read of anyone in the US getting 265s after they started coming with the 245s (other than for possible delivery lag). If they have gone back and forth, you're probably right. Although if that's the case, they shouldn't be representing to customers that they have discontinued the 265s and that the 245 square is the only option from now on. I will say that I had no problem ordering the 265 staggered setup with PS2s from my service center (although I realize that one set is a lot different than supplying a whole production line).

 

[NOLA_Mike]

Have they moved back and forth? I thought the just moved from the 265s PS2s to the 245 square Contis. Have not read of anyone in the US getting 265s after they started coming with the 245s (other than for possible delivery lag). If they have gone back and forth, you're probably right. Although if that's the case, they shouldn't be representing to customers that they have discontinued the 265s and that the 245 square is the only option from now on. I will say that I had no problem ordering the 265 staggered setup with PS2s from my service center (although I realize that one set is a lot different than supplying a whole production line).

While I have no personal confirmation one way or the other, if you just read through this thread it appears it has gone back and forth - in February folks were being told to expect square setup, in May it was back to staggered.

As far as ordering from the service center, I would expect if they are having supply problems they will quit producing cars with them BEFORE they completely run out - those of us with the staggered setup need to be able to buy replacements when we need them.

Mike

 

[pax]

I called the SC today and they said that they have not seen any P85D's delivered with staggered setup. Of course they offered to sell me the wider wheels and tires if I want that but warned me that they are testing the car only in the square setup. Unfortunately I let my frustration show a bit. I hate it when I do that.

 

[dennis]

I called the SC today and they said that they have not seen any P85D's delivered with staggered setup. Of course they offered to sell me the wider wheels and tires if I want that but warned me that they are testing the car only in the square setup.

I had it confirmed by knowledgeable people at both the Fremont Delivery Center and Fremont Design Center that the P85D has been tested and approved with both the square and staggered setup. The cars are delivered with whatever tires are available. There is no way Tesla could have delivered P85D's with the staggered setup without testing, despite what your SC is saying.

 

[dcohen]

Is there any information on the Continental's being quieter, vs the Michelin's, in the Staggered setup?