Sorry, I actually like the new UI :)

[sleepydoc]

Distracted driving is definitely a big problem but the risks are somewhat offset by the warnings (and automated braking, etc.) generated by Teslas (and lots of other newer cars). Hard to say how many crashes, pedestrian fatalities and such are actually avoided with modern vehicle technology. Less distraction is obviously better but it would be interesting if any jurisdiction in North America or otherwise has mandated how car control systems must be designed; what level of distraction is acceptable. There is also matter of distractions that don't relate to actual driving like: changing seat heaters, audio, texting, checking tire pressure or energy efficiency, etc. Ultimately safe operation of the vehicle is the responsibility of the driver (no matter how the UI is laid out or changed). In many cases the driver needs to make a judgement about whether it is safe or not to fiddle with the controls; some things might be okay on a lightly travelled highway during daytime but would be pretty risky on a dark rainy night approaching a busy intersection.

True. Features like automatic braking, warnings, etc certainly help, but don’t replace driver attention. Just because you have an airbag doesn’t mean you can skip the seatbelt.

I’m not aware of any laws around car interface design. Such laws would be very difficult to write and enforce because much of it is inherently subjective. There was a recent suit by the NHTSA over the ability to play games while driving. IIRC Tesla was forced to change the interface so you couldn’t play games while driving. Really? They actually had to be told to do that? The fact that that was even a question and they still prioritize ‘arcade’ and ‘toybox’ over the defroster speaks volumes to their priorities.

Ultimately, you are correct, it’s the driver’s responsibility, but that doesn’t absolve the carmakers of the responsibility to design systems to minimize the risk.

 

[sleepydoc]

See my real world example of a 400mi speced car with 200mi “real” range. It is the difference between 3hr and 5hr trip. Shorter range has cumulative effect, it is not only the time you spend at SC.

Much depends on your planned use. ICE cars will be quicker and easier to fill up for the foreseeable future but how much that really matters depends.

The listed range of EVs is like the EPA milage estimates for ICE cars - it’s possible, but only in perfect conditions and most of the time you get significantly less. The problem with EVs is the range is already at the lower edge of acceptable for many people and the paucity of charging locations and time it takes to charge compounds the significance of reduced range.

Take winter driving. It’s -4º F (-20ºC) in Minneapolis today and we got snow last night. It took 18% charge for me to drive the 24 mile round trip to work. That translates to a 133 mile range. Not surprising - I had to use a lot of energy to heat the car, driving through snow uses a lot more energy and the regenerative braking is worthless when it’s cold. An ICE car also would have gotten crappy milage, but probably not quite as much of a drop. More significantly, there are 5 places where I could get gas on the way home but no places at which I could charge my car. As long as I can make it home it’s not an issue; I can plug my car in tonight and it will be fully charged tomorrow. If I needed to go more than 133 miles it would be quite problematic.

 

[MacNeil]

True. Features like automatic braking, warnings, etc certainly help, but don’t replace driver attention. Just because you have an airbag doesn’t mean you can skip the seatbelt.

I’m not aware of any laws around car interface design. Such laws would be very difficult to write and enforce because much of it is inherently subjective. There was a recent suit by the NHTSA over the ability to play games while driving. IIRC Tesla was forced to change the interface so you couldn’t play games while driving. Really? They actually had to be told to do that? The fact that that was even a question and they still prioritize ‘arcade’ and ‘toybox’ over the defroster speaks volumes to their priorities.

Ultimately, you are correct, it’s the driver’s responsibility, but that doesn’t absolve the carmakers of the responsibility to design systems to minimize the risk.

It would be interesting to see how the courts might rule on these matters. I could see a driver blaming the carmaker in some cases (based on the design of the UI or some other aspect of the car). But would the courts rule that all Teslas with v11 are inherently unsafe? I have my doubts on that one. I presume that the crash data recorder would likely show what controls the driver was using immediately before a crash. Would it matter if the driver was distracted by using an essential system (like wipers or defoggers) versus checking energy efficiency or resetting seat heaters?

One could argue that a passenger should still able to play games while the car was being driven. I would view that as potentially a major distraction for the driver even if they were not actually playing. Not sure if the recent changes actually prevent all game playing; can games still be accessed over the internet while the car is in motion?

 

[Boza]

There are certainly laws and rules regarding the driver interface. For example Audi E-tron in EU has an option with lcd screens vs mirrors. They do not sell it in the USA because cars must have mirrors. I think the hazard lights must be on the physical button. Also, I think the position of the pedals is determined.
NHTSA is probably already looking at the “half-wheel” and stockless design. If I have to use an analogy from the physical world - how would they react if you have to open the glove compartment to check/engage the defrosters? It is certainly a gray area.
Even though they are a government agency that sets standards (hence, move with glacial pace) we should not write off an appropriate response in a relatively short term. They could issue a standard that affects future cars but, given how Tesla does development, that will trickle down to existing models as well.

 

[WattsappMTL]

Two popular and regularly used by many were moved and there are either no voice commands associated or the expected voice command ("Show tire pressure" doen't work, but "show service" does- which is arguably non-intuitive, both should work). Also, many people drive in areas where there can be no data- this is true for the first 3-5 minutes of my drive. There are plenty of times where voice command isn't appropriate- people sleeping in the car on a road trip... or simply just that I'm playing a song and don't want to interrupt that experience for myself or passengers to use a silly voice command because a designer decided that empty black space looked better than a button I could tap almost blindly for a driving related function needs to be lost in a sea of other buttons on a full screen menu. 90% of what was done seems like the result of a 25 year old kid coding this stuff on a desktop who doesn't even have a license.

Voice commands aren't quick enough or reliable 100% of the time- and they absolutely need to be at times for wiper, defrost and other driving functions. It should not be relied on for safety behind the wheel or user interfaces when we are talking about operating a lethal weapon. You can kill yourself or an untold amount of people in a car- sometime, of all groups, it's like Tesla forgets that.

Actually, "show service" does not work for me. It tries to navigate to a selection of destination that sound like "show service". "Show service settings" does work, but why do I have to be so specific?

 

[DeepFrz]

I just installed the holiday update last night. I’m looking forward to driving it in a few minutes. I explored all of the menus last night and for the most part, it the changes seem logical.

OMG, you read the manual?

 

[FarNorthDallas]

Since I only just received my M3P in late September I didn't really have an attachment to the old UI.

Although I don't understand some of the changes, I don't dislike the update. For me it's not better or worse, just different.

Same here.

 

[Big Earl]

If I needed to go more than 133 miles it would be quite problematic.

Probably not that bad. Most of the high consumption is early in the drive cycle. Once the car warms up, consumption drops significantly. I typically see a 40% - 50% range reduction in winter (yes, real winter, not Washington DC winter).

I’d expect a long range Y to get a realistic 160 - 190 miles on a winter trip. Every major route out of Minneapolis has plenty of Supercharger coverage. Image below with a 120 mile radius circle around Minneapolis. Of course, you could be heading due west or northeast into the EV charging desert.

Is this the thread about liking the new UI? We seem to be discussing lots of other things.

 

[john5520]

Distracted driving is definitely a big problem but the risks are somewhat offset by the warnings (and automated braking, etc.) generated by Teslas (and lots of other newer cars). Hard to say how many crashes, pedestrian fatalities and such are actually avoided with modern vehicle technology. Less distraction is obviously better but it would be interesting if any jurisdiction in North America or otherwise has mandated how car control systems must be designed; what level of distraction is acceptable. There is also matter of distractions that don't relate to actual driving like: changing seat heaters, audio, texting, checking tire pressure or energy efficiency, etc. Ultimately safe operation of the vehicle is the responsibility of the driver (no matter how the UI is laid out or changed). In many cases the driver needs to make a judgement about whether it is safe or not to fiddle with the controls; some things might be okay on a lightly travelled highway during daytime but would be pretty risky on a dark rainy night approaching a busy intersection.

Great post. Can't blame the UI for poor driving choices. Even with traditional non-UI cabins, there were some settings that often required (depending on the car) the user to look away from the road. Drivers had to adapt accordingly for safe operation of the vehicle.

 

[sleepydoc]

Probably not that bad. Most of the high consumption is early in the drive cycle. Once the car warms up, consumption drops significantly. I typically see a 40% - 50% range reduction in winter (yes, real winter, not Washington DC winter).

I’d expect a long range Y to get a realistic 160 - 190 miles on a winter trip. Every major route out of Minneapolis has plenty of Supercharger coverage. Image below with a 120 mile radius circle around Minneapolis. Of course, you could be heading due west or northeast into the EV charging desert.

View attachment 759385

Is this the thread about liking the new UI? We seem to be discussing lots of other things.

The problem with a 130 mile range is you have to stop an charge for 45 minutes every hour and a half. Spending 33% of your traveling time at a charging station is not a realistic option. In general, I'm not taking a road trip in a snow storm so it's not that bad but it highlights a weakness of EVs.

But yes, back to the original topic...

Great post. Can't blame the UI for poor driving choices. Even with traditional non-UI cabins, there were some settings that often required (depending on the car) the user to look away from the road. Drivers had to adapt accordingly for safe operation of the vehicle.

Agreed, it is far from black and white. Ultimately it is the driver's responsibility but you also can't completely ignore the role of the UI, either. A system that requires more interaction is more likely to cause more distraction and humans are notoriously poor at gauging distraction and how long they have looked away from the road. On multiple occasions I've caught myself looking down at the screen in my Model Y for longer than I should which tells me something.

Good automotive UI design makes it easy to accomplish necessary tasks with minimal attention. For most functions, V11 requires more interaction than V10, so by that measure it fails.

 

[lensovet]

Drivers had to adapt accordingly for safe operation of the vehicle

Ah yes, the "you're holding it wrong" defense. Right up there with the "it's a feature, not a bug" mentality.

Tell that to the folks killed by the Therac-25 - Wikipedia.

 

[john5520]

Ah yes, the "you're holding it wrong" defense. Right up there with the "it's a feature, not a bug" mentality.

There is nothing in the UI that I've seen that should cause a careful driver to crash. If you find yourself getting dangerously distracted with a setting, 'you're doing it wrong.'

Tell that to the folks killed by the Therac-25 - Wikipedia.

Apples and oranges. The therac-25 from what I'm reading suffered from poorly written, buggy software that hadn't been thoroughly tested. We're arguing over the UI design, not whether the software itself has bugs.

 

[sleepydoc]

There is nothing in the UI that I've seen that should cause a careful driver to crash. If you find yourself getting dangerously distracted with a setting, 'you're doing it wrong.'

Many people including myself have described situations where the UI caused undue distraction. You’re simply choosing to ignore the roll that the UI plays.

Apples and oranges. The therac-25 from what I'm reading suffered from poorly written, buggy software that hadn't been thoroughly tested. We're arguing over the UI design, not whether the software itself has bugs.

…and Teslas suffer from poorly written software as well. Apples to apples.

 

[john5520]

Many people including myself have described situations where the UI caused undue distraction. You’re simply choosing to ignore the roll that the UI plays.

Yes, you've described a situation where an extra second caused an undue distraction. I don't have that problem so I can't blame the UI.

…and Teslas suffer from poorly written software as well. Apples to apples.

Well, since you're bringing in a straw man, care to expound on that?

 

[Boza]

I think Elon switched from @TexasTezla to @john5520 …

 

[john5520]

I think Elon switched from @TexasTezla to @john5520 …

You got me. I'm really Elon.

 

[Boza]

You got me. I'm really Elon.

Please tell the designers to give us the ability to add functions (like defogger, seat warmers, etc.) to the app launcher. Small cost/huge benefit: Suddenly, a lot of gripes will simply disappear and people will start helping you with marketing and sales again.

 

[_Redshift_]

There is nothing in the UI that I've seen that should cause a careful driver to crash. If you find yourself getting dangerously distracted with a setting, 'you're doing it wrong.'

Then majority of us are ‘holding it wrong’, bub. Did you see the polls?

Don’t be a blind apologist for everything Tesla does. Neither helps Tesla, nor you.

 

[john5520]

Then majority of us are ‘holding it wrong’, bub. Did you see the polls?

Don’t be a blind apologist for everything Tesla does. Neither helps Tesla, nor you.

I call it bandwagon drama. Happens with phones, operating systems, games etc. It's easier to complain than to actually put forth the effort to learn something new. It's not perfect and is a work in progress, but some of the complaints are over-the-top.

I've already mentioned a couple issues, and some wants. One that's becoming more and more evident is the size and location of the blind spot cam screen. It needs to be larger and more to the right. And aside from more apps, I'd like to see adjustable windows. I'm sure there are other things I can find, but I'm willing to give them a chance to get feedback and hopefully implement some of the desired features / changes.

 

[_Redshift_]

I call it bandwagon drama. Happens with phones, operating systems, games etc. It's easier to complain than to actually put forth the effort to learn something new. It's not perfect and is a work in progress, but some of the complaints are over-the-top.

I've already mentioned a couple issues, and some wants. One that's becoming more and more evident is the size and location of the blind spot cam screen. It needs to be larger and more to the right. And aside from more apps, I'd like to see adjustable windows.

This isn’t a phone. Nothing mundane about hiding critically important buttons under a menu tree.

A UX designer walks into a Tesla Bar – Scott Jenson

jenson.org