Starting to regret FSD pre-purchase in a major way

[Kentrock1]

Was Tesla reading this thread?

Announcing they're no longer going to sell vapor-ware?

Tesla removes ‘Full Self-Driving Capability’ package from its options due to ‘confusion’

And there's a chance that those who already paid for FSD will have to pay for additional hardware to make it work.

 

[Knightshade]

And there's a chance that those who already paid for FSD will have to pay for additional hardware to make it work.

No, there isn't.

Selling something and then asking for more money after the sale to get what you already paid for isn't legal.

Tesla would be obligated to provide the hardware for free (or possibly return the money in full, likely with interest).

They've already stated they're providing the upgraded computer hardware for free to everyone who already paid for FSD for example.

 

[Kentrock1]

No, there isn't.

Selling something and then asking for more money after the sale to get what you already paid for isn't legal.

Tesla would be obligated to provide the hardware for free (or possibly return the money in full, likely with interest).

They've already stated they're providing the upgraded computer hardware for free to everyone who already paid for FSD for example.

Whew, ok then. FSD still seems like a tall order to deliver on.

 

[xcat]

We’re talking years prior to anything FSD worthy to be released to consumers. Even though HW 3.0 is being released in a few months does not mean it’ll have software to do anything meaningful to the driver.

Look at the subtle end user differences between AP 1 and 2.5. I believe they’re next to none however overlap by 3 years.

 

[Knightshade]

We’re talking years prior to anything FSD worthy to be released to consumers. Even though HW 3.0 is being released in a few months does not mean it’ll have software to do anything meaningful to the driver.

.

This isn't likely to be true... they were discussing the first FSD features as coming in V9, so they're probably coming pretty close with the HW upgrade. It won't be L5, that is almost certainly many years away... but it might well be L3 Real Soon Now.

L3 isn't "years away" there's a car right now from Audi that offers it (not in the US though).

My prediction is initially you'll get basically L3 FSD that looks a lot like feature-complete EAP (meaning with Drive on Nav enabled) but without nags and without requiring driver attention on the appropriate roads (divided highways). Possibly you'll get reading speed limit signs too. You might even get an L4 version of that.

But things like handling complex intersections in urban local roads with pedestrians, unprotected left turns, etc? That's gonna be a while.

 

[neroden]

I waffled quite a bit but ultimately decided to plunk down the pre-order cash for FSD functionality “when it becomes available.” I knew this was a huge risk, and I was told by several industry insider friends that I shouldn’t, that Tesla - or anyone else - is still many years away from truly delivering this in the way someone would expect when they say “full self driving autonomy.” I did it anyway.

I’ve been patiently waiting for v9, knowing that the “drive on nav,” while clearly not anything close to FSD, would at least be a big step in the right direction.

Now, after over 2 months of teasing a v9 release date only to delay it, tease it again, then delay it some more, Musk comes out a few hours ago to say they’re pulling drive on nav “for a few more weeks.” Not only that, but in doing so, he also mentions that it’s “extremely difficult to achieve a general solution that works well everywhere.”

This is a serious admission of just how far off Tesla is from FSD. It’s that difficult for them to get freeway “semi-autonomy” (until this car stops nagging me every 20-30 sec to grab the wheel, nothing they do is autonomous IMO) working, and freeway driving is FAR less complicated than any other roadway.

I am seriously questioning at this point whether FSD will be available at any point before my car falls apart due to age alone. If that were to be the case, how can it be legal for Tesla to charge customers money up front for a feature they never deliver before the product deprecates beyond usefulness?

Bluntly, I'd just ask for my money back. I'm pretty sure they'll give it back. Even the optimists are now (quite reasonably) expecting that in the near future it'll only work on divided, limited-access highways; if you really wanted *full* self-driving, get your money back.

 

[neroden]

Ok so, again, some of you seem to be missing the part where ITS ILLEGAL TO SELL THINGS YOU DONT INTEND TO DELIVER.

There is absolutely nothing analogous here to a “cute girl” who teases you. Yes, every consumer has the RIGHT to expect the goods and services they pay for to be delivered.

I am absolutely certain that Musk and Tesla intended to deliver full self driving quickly. Of course, that was impossible, but Musk was exceedingly optimistic (...like he usually is).

 

[Thp3]

Most of us have the $7,500 tax rebate. I chose to spend some of that on the FSD software. I think that linking the GPS to the Autopilot (Drive-on-Nav) is a critical step that I have not seen in other cruise systems. Version 9 supports the likely needed components for FSD, 8 cameras, radar, Drive-on-Nav(patch update should restore it..). Then better maps and a faster CPU should be much of the FSD needs.

It is helpful to encourage Tesla(Elon?) to develop FSD. I would not want cash flow issues to cause Tesla financial issues. So I got the FSD because it will help Tesla develop it and I always like getting hardware upgrades. (HW3 in 2019).

Now I’d like the EAP and FSD to recognize pedestrians and deer, and maybe dogs and squirrels too.

 

[daniel]

Avoiding small obstacles, especially moving ones, without endangering the car's occupants or other cars, will not be a trivial matter.

 

[N5329K]

I am absolutely certain that Musk and Tesla intended to deliver full self driving quickly. Of course, that was impossible, but Musk was exceedingly optimistic (...like he usually is).

His intentions were good, though.
Robin

 

[daniel]

Is the road to hell really paved with good intentions? I think that sentiment is glib nonsense. Good intentions do not always get you where you wanted to be, but I think the road to hell is paved with a lot more intolerance and fear and envy and avarice than with good intentions. Maybe one paving stone out of a hundred on the road to hell is a good intention.

Elon fu@ked up when he promised FSD, but his good intentions produced the leading electric car company in the world and forced the other automakers to at least build some token electric cars. He gave us the Roadster, then the S and the X and now the Model 3. He gave us the premier charging network in the world. And he built the first private company to build and launch resupply rockets to the ISS, and at half the cost per pound of payload of anyone else.

I think it would be a great public relations coup if Tesla offered to refund the money to buyers of FSD who have changed their minds. ButI don't think his mistaken expectation for a timeline for FSD or his poor choice to market FSD before it was available is quite the offramp to hell. From the responses here, it seems that most folks who paid for FSD do not regret their choice.

 

[vikefan]

From the responses here, it seems that most folks who paid for FSD do not regret their choice.

The people who are saying they’re happy they bought FSD are convincing themselves (probably as a defense mechanism to not feel dumb for having paid for vapor ware) that they actually just want to “support Tesla’s mission” , not because they’re actually happy with FSD. Of course they’re not happy with FSD. You can’t be. It doesn’t exist despite being marketed and sold by Tesla for literally years now.

Tesla did not market FSD as a donation to Tesla’s mission. Had they done that, I would have been given the opportunity to make a different purchasing decision. I could then decide whether I want to donate to Tesla or not, and if I chose to, then everything here would be gravy.

Unfortunately, that’s not what Tesla has done. They marketed and sold a product, i.e. an actual end-user deliverable. They need to either make good on that deliverable — and BEFORE the cars they’re selling with it depreciate considerably / entirely, or they should be refunding FSD money to their customers, if not because it’s the legally correct thing to do, then because it is the morally and ethically correct thing to do.

 

[jcasetnl]

The people who are saying they’re happy they bought FSD are convincing themselves (probably as a defense mechanism to not feel dumb for having paid for vapor ware) that they actually just want to “support Tesla’s mission” , not because they’re actually happy with FSD. Of course they’re not happy with FSD. You can’t be. It doesn’t exist despite being marketed and sold by Tesla for literally years now.

Yup. People are trying to hash out the silver lining because they're starting to suspect that FSD may never come.

We're in some weird straddle between Denial and Bargaining. Like "If X and Y and Z all happen, then maybe FSD can still happen. But if X and Y and Z don't happen, Tesla still accelerated EV adoption."

Conspicuously absent is Anger. I think that's because there's no "hard stop" on whether FSD can work or not. There's no industry reference point until someone else actually does it. But if another car maker delivers proof of a solid advance in the FSD story, I suspect the pitchforks and refund demands will start to come out. Especially if the economy hits the skids and people who paid for the feature suddenly find themselves cash-strapped.

 

[Knightshade]

Yup. People are trying to hash out the silver lining because they're starting to suspect that FSD may never come.

Yeah, not really though.

If it never comes I get a full refund.

If it does come out, even if it's only limited features in the next 5 years (and L3 at minimum should be easy, and a lot sooner- given L3 already exists on at least one other makers car), then I get those features cheaper than those who didn't preorder (and am guaranteed free HW upgrades too).

There's basically 0 downside on my end short of "Tesla is suddenly totally out of cash and no longer exists" in which case the folks without FSD are just as screwed as I am owning an orphan car.

 

[jcasetnl]

There's basically 0 downside on my end short of "Tesla is suddenly totally out of cash and no longer exists" in which case the folks without FSD are just as screwed as I am owning an orphan car.

They would own an orphan car less the cost of the FSD cost. That's not the same as "just as screwed". That $ difference is three reasonably equipped Apple computers.

Even in a case such as that, 3rd parties would still provide repairs and maintenance, but FSD development would cease. So I don't agree there's zero downside.

 

[Knightshade]

They would own an orphan car less the cost of the FSD cost. That's not the same as "just as screwed". That $ difference is three reasonably equipped Apple computers.

You and I have a very different definition of reasonably equipped computers...1/3rd of the FSD amount barely pays for the video card in my desktop.

Even in a case such as that, 3rd parties would still provide repairs and maintenance

Would they?

How?

Unlike, say Saab, there isn't a separate "tesla parts" company that is profitable and solvent to keep producing and selling them if the parent goes out of business.

And unlike say Saab, a ton more of the car is highly proprietary and software reliant.

So unless a 3rd party is able to purchase source code and parts rights from Tesla I'm not sure how that would happen.

Heck even with Tesla OPEN look at how long folks have their cars stuck at 3rd party body shops waiting on... parts from Tesla....and it's not like you can swing by Jiffy Lube and have them say program in a new keycard to your Model 3.

 

[Daniel in SD]

GM went bankrupt and they still honored the warranties on cars sold before the bankruptcy. It seems very likely that a Tesla bankruptcy would be Chapter 11 and the company would continue to operate afterwards.
I wouldn't be surprised if the wait for parts decreased since New Tesla would have money to pay its suppliers

 

[Knightshade]

GM went bankrupt and they still honored the warranties on cars sold before the bankruptcy.

That was a reorg bankruptcy. Which wasn't what was being discussed.

In such a situation FSD would still be a thing- either existing or in development, so irrelevant to the topic.

We were discussing Tesla just ceases to exist and there's no warranty from anybody (as for example happened to Saab- but luckily for owners their parts division was a separate, profitable, company... not so with Teslas parts, or software, divisions)

 

[vikefan]

Yeah, not really though.

If it never comes I get a full refund.

What makes you believe Tesla is promising refunds for FSD if it “never comes”? And what constitutes “never”? “Never” could be within the next 100 years, i.e. after you’re dead. Did Tesla indicate somewhere when and how they’ll be issuing refunds for FSD and I’ve just missed it?

 

[jcasetnl]

So unless a 3rd party is able to purchase source code and parts rights from Tesla I'm not sure how that would happen.

Heck even with Tesla OPEN look at how long folks have their cars stuck at 3rd party body shops waiting on... parts from Tesla....and it's not like you can swing by Jiffy Lube and have them say program in a new keycard to your Model 3.

You are describing Chapter 7 bankruptcy (liquidation). In that case, yes, a 3rd party would buy the relevant assets to make repairs possible (and more importantly: profitable). The catch is they'll limit their exposure to what they can profitably repair and which customers are willing to pay for.

In terms of parts and support, the current awful situation is strictly Tesla's fault. Only in MA can one even access the FSM because they passed a "right to repair" law. No other car company except exotics have that kind of policy. They keep an iron grip on parts manufacturing as well. All of this would be a cash cow for Tesla if they had their act together on the repair side. They could be making 50% margins on parts, painting, even stupid stuff like body wraps.