State based EV road user charge (Overturned 18/10/23)

[PC__LoadLetter]

@SL666 I'm not prescribing how you should live. But I do expect you to show a bare minimum of circumspection and respect to your fellow citizens and not kill them with air pollution from your controlled burns because you chose to build your house in a known bush fire area.

Think about that. Take as long as you need.

This country will burn no matter what we do. Just like California, and for the exact same reason - Eucalypts. Better to burn it in the cooler months.

Indigenous Fire Management — Kimberley Land Council

The Kimberley Land Council’s Indigenous fire management program is extremely important to the biodiversity of the environmentally significant Kimberley region.

www.klc.org.au

 

[Ray-S]

With the Victorian EV tax (ZLEV) going up at midnight tonight and the VICRoads website noting the increase is only applicable to Km travelled from tomorrow I would think it wise for anyone with EVs registered in Victoria to take a photo of the odometer tonight.
I have not had to deal directly with the VICRoads bureaucracy in regards to the ZLEV tax as I have only had my TM3 four months but I imagine they would be pretty recalcitrant if you lacked the evidence.

 

[Max Spaghetti]

How will that help?

It's my understanding that on your registration renewal date you send your odometer and then they tell you how much you owe. Nothing about a June 30 odometer.

 

[Ray-S]

Well given this clarification on the link I posted above -
Only distances travelled after 1 July 2023 will be subject to the new rate.
I have taken the precaution to record the odometer reading before 01-Jul-23 to make it crystal clear what Km fall under the older rate.

 

[Vostok]

Well the case of Vanderstock & Anor v. The State of Victoria must be greatly exercising the collective minds of the justices, with no judgment released yet and no indication yet of when it will be delivered.

I do note however that this case is one of only two cases lodged in 2021 that are yet to have judgments handed down. And the other case was heard in May, so after this one (April), which might suggest this judgment will be the next one handed down (although the judgments do not necessariy come out in the same order they are heard).

So hopefully we are not too far away from finally hearing a verdict...

 

[javataco]

Well the case of Vanderstock & Anor v. The State of Victoria must be greatly exercising the collective minds of the justices, with no judgment released yet and no indication yet of when it will be delivered.

I do note however that this case is one of only two cases lodged in 2021 that are yet to have judgments handed down. And the other case was heard in May, so after this one (April), which might suggest this judgment will be the next one handed down (although the judgments do not necessariy come out in the same order they are heard).

So hopefully we are not too far away from finally hearing a verdict...

Waiting with bated breath! My odometer declaration is due in a month so waiting on the outcome of this.

 

[Quickst]

We should look towards Norway. They're in a very similar constellation as Australia, having huge petro resources dependency for income, yet driving green infrastructure and EV adoption at never before seen speeds.

Country comparison are always fraught with problems. For Australia is 20x the land mass and 10x the road network in km

@SL666 it's been documented at length in this thread and others that fuel excise goes into general revenue and has nothing to do with road construction funding.

All taxes whether tax/excise/charge/fee goes into consolidated revenue and has nothing to do with its expenditure.
Even the medicare levy has nothing to do with funding health care.
All government expenditure comes from consolidated revenue.

In order to fund all of its obligations, the government raises taxes/excise/whatever you like to call it, from wherever it can. The States gets Federal grants annually as part of their agreement with the commonwealth government. It can also raise fees/levies/charges on its own. The money for road funding then is a % of all the momney from all sources federal and State - Even a % of the medicare levy eventually makes its way to fixing a pothole - because it goes into consolidated revenue.

Call it whatever you like - a road usage fee, a EV tax, Daniel Andrew can't manage the budget tax, EV drivers are rich tax, etc etc. But it makes sense that EV drivers who don't pay a fuel excise should make a contribution on top of their rego toward the usage of roads irrespective of whether the money for road maintenance comes from.

People who use the roads should help pay for the roads. I do agree that EV and ICE should pay a road usage per km fee.

 

[paulp]

Country comparison are always fraught with problems. For Australia is 20x the land mass and 10x the road network in km

All taxes whether tax/excise/charge/fee goes into consolidated revenue and has nothing to do with its expenditure.
Even the medicare levy has nothing to do with funding health care.
All government expenditure comes from consolidated revenue.

In order to fund all of its obligations, the government raises taxes/excise/whatever you like to call it, from wherever it can. The States gets Federal grants annually as part of their agreement with the commonwealth government. It can also raise fees/levies/charges on its own. The money for road funding then is a % of all the momney from all sources federal and State - Even a % of the medicare levy eventually makes its way to fixing a pothole - because it goes into consolidated revenue.

Call it whatever you like - a road usage fee, a EV tax, Daniel Andrew can't manage the budget tax, EV drivers are rich tax, etc etc. But it makes sense that EV drivers who don't pay a fuel excise should make a contribution on top of their rego toward the usage of roads irrespective of whether the money for road maintenance comes from.

People who use the roads should help pay for the roads. I do agree that EV and ICE should pay a road usage per km fee.

I agree that ev users need to contribute to the roads(directly or indirectly) although I think it should be a fed tax not a state tax, however since you mentioned medicare…the same ev drivers cause less city polution and medical issues, so less medicare use for others. Should ev drivers therefore recieve a medicare rebate?

 

[houdini]

Waiting with bated breath! My odometer declaration is due in a month so waiting on the outcome of this.

And indeed I have the next 10 years of odometer readings ready to go already. 5kms, 10kms etc. lovely photos to be submitted each year.

 

[Quickst]

Should ev drivers therefore recieve a medicare rebate?

Medicare as you know is not based on medical risk, rather it is based on % taxable income and has nothing to do with community health.
Fuel excise is a tax on fuel, it has nothing to do with how it is used and nothing to do with roads. You could burn it in a backyard burnoff. you could use it in a lawnmower. You could use it in a back home generator.

However the road users tax is raised - whether Federal or State, it is fair that everyone who use it should contribute to it.
Its not about "i pay my rego, i should not have to pay road usage tax". Its also not about "I pay the fuel excise, i should not have to pay the road usage tax". ICE should pay the fuel excise AND the road usage tax.

 

[EcoCloudIT]

Country comparison are always fraught with problems. For Australia is 20x the land mass and 10x the road network in km

All taxes whether tax/excise/charge/fee goes into consolidated revenue and has nothing to do with its expenditure.
Even the medicare levy has nothing to do with funding health care.
All government expenditure comes from consolidated revenue.

In order to fund all of its obligations, the government raises taxes/excise/whatever you like to call it, from wherever it can. The States gets Federal grants annually as part of their agreement with the commonwealth government. It can also raise fees/levies/charges on its own. The money for road funding then is a % of all the momney from all sources federal and State - Even a % of the medicare levy eventually makes its way to fixing a pothole - because it goes into consolidated revenue.

Call it whatever you like - a road usage fee, a EV tax, Daniel Andrew can't manage the budget tax, EV drivers are rich tax, etc etc. But it makes sense that EV drivers who don't pay a fuel excise should make a contribution on top of their rego toward the usage of roads irrespective of whether the money for road maintenance comes from.

People who use the roads should help pay for the roads. I do agree that EV and ICE should pay a road usage per km fee.

Can ICE drivers their fair share for all the lung issues and cancers those cars cause?

I agree a road tax in due course (when more EVs are on the road), but at the moment we actual save the government money in medical cost however this is discounted away politically, it shouldn’t be…

 

[Quickst]

Can ICE drivers their fair share for all the lung issues and cancers those cars cause?

One could say they are already paying for it via the fuel excise - because the fuel excise goes into consolidated revenue of which some goes toward paying for health care.
If not enough in your mind just keep raising the fuel excise.
The tobacco and alcohol excise work in a similar way. It's just a tax which goes into consolidated revenue of which some goes toward healthcare but is never enough to pay for the health effects of tobacco and alchohol. similarly the medicare levy only pays for about 8% of the total health budget. Should we increase the medicare levy to 100% cover for annual health expenditure?. No because the funding of health care also comes from other taxes such as personal income tax and GST.

In a similar way a road usage per km tax is just a tax in road usage but which goes into the State coffers, and from which a certain amount is used for road maintenance. The road maintenance funding comes from Fed and State coffers

 

[EcoCloudIT]

One could say they are already paying for it via the fuel excise - because the fuel excise goes into consolidated revenue of which some goes toward paying for health care.
If not enough in your mind just keep raising the fuel excise.
The tobacco and alcohol excise work in a similar way. It's just a tax which goes into consolidated revenue of which some goes toward healthcare but is never enough to pay for the health effects of tobacco and alchohol. similarly the medicare levy only pays for about 8% of the total health budget. Should we increase the medicare levy to 100% cover for annual health expenditure?. No because the funding of health care also comes from other taxes such as personal income tax and GST.

In a similar way a road usage per km tax is just a tax in road usage but which goes into the State coffers, and from which a certain amount is used for road maintenance. The road maintenance funding comes from Fed and State coffers

Okay, then Federal, not state, should be collecting consolidated revenue like they do for all other such taxes…no?

 

[eclectricdave]

Okay, then Federal, not state, should be collecting consolidated revenue like they do for all other such taxes…no?

Country comparison are always fraught with problems. For Australia is 20x the land mass and 10x the road network in km

All taxes whether tax/excise/charge/fee goes into consolidated revenue and has nothing to do with its expenditure.
Even the medicare levy has nothing to do with funding health care.
All government expenditure comes from consolidated revenue.

In order to fund all of its obligations, the government raises taxes/excise/whatever you like to call it, from wherever it can. The States gets Federal grants annually as part of their agreement with the commonwealth government. It can also raise fees/levies/charges on its own. The money for road funding then is a % of all the momney from all sources federal and State - Even a % of the medicare levy eventually makes its way to fixing a pothole - because it goes into consolidated revenue.

Call it whatever you like - a road usage fee, a EV tax, Daniel Andrew can't manage the budget tax, EV drivers are rich tax, etc etc. But it makes sense that EV drivers who don't pay a fuel excise should make a contribution on top of their rego toward the usage of roads irrespective of whether the money for road maintenance comes from.

People who use the roads should help pay for the roads. I do agree that EV and ICE should pay a road usage per km fee.

The Vic RUC includes distance travelled outside Victoria. AFAIK there is no monies remitted to those states from Vic ie they keep it. This is my objection to theVicRUC. I know someone who does a lot of interstate driving who has a suitable address in another state has now transferred his rego there. No more RUC for him. Im tempted to buy a property interstate and do the same myself but buy an additional EV for that state.

 

[Quickst]

If the Road usage charge gets passed by the HCoA, the other states will follow.

 

[Vostok]

The Vic RUC includes distance travelled outside Victoria. AFAIK there is no monies remitted to those states from Vic ie they keep it. This is my objection to theVicRUC.

Well both the NSW and WA laws are extraterritorial in operation. The NSW RUC is locked in - it was legislated in 2021, and will actually start being charged once 30% of new vehicle sales are EVs, or 1 July 2027, whichever comes first (FWIW, the 30% will come first, in 2025).

Eventually every state will have their own RUC after the plaintiffs lose their High Court challenge, at which point their extraterritorial nature becomes irrelevant. If VIC Driver A does 10,000 km in VIC and 1,000 km in NSW, and NSW driver B does 10,000 km in NSW and 1,000 km in VIC, then it‘s a wash. Doesn’t matter whether VIC collects all the revenue from the 11,000 km for Driver A, or VIC charges for 10,000 km and NSW charges for the 1,000 km and sends the bill to VIC Driver A. In fact it’s much more sensible and less bureaucratic for VIC and NSW to just charge for all km driven, regardless of where.

Eventually with millions of EV drivers, it will all even out, and no-one will care anymore.

 

[EcoCloudIT]

Well both the NSW and WA laws are extraterritorial in operation. The NSW RUC is locked in - it was legislated in 2021, and will actually start being charged once 30% of new vehicle sales are EVs, or 1 July 2027, whichever comes first (FWIW, the 30% will come first, in 2025).

Eventually every state will have their own RUC after the plaintiffs lose their High Court challenge, at which point their extraterritorial nature becomes irrelevant. If VIC Driver A does 10,000 km in VIC and 1,000 km in NSW, and NSW driver B does 10,000 km in NSW and 1,000 km in VIC, then it‘s a wash. Doesn’t matter whether VIC collects all the revenue from the 11,000 km for Driver A, or VIC charges for 10,000 km and NSW charges for the 1,000 km and sends the bill to VIC Driver A. In fact it’s much more sensible and less bureaucratic for VIC and NSW to just charge for all km driven, regardless of where.

Eventually with millions of EV drivers, it will all even out, and no-one will care anymore.

Apart from the Federal Government loosing out on consolidated revenue.

Plus, using your example, one is assuming the charge per km is the same between states...I bet it won't be...

It should be left as a Federal Government charge and implemented Australia wide when appropriate (% of EVs greater than 30%...none of this 2027 or 30% which ever comes first crap....better than here in VIC though at least).

 

[cafz]

Apart from the Federal Government loosing out on consolidated revenue.

The Federal Government doesn't have the spending responsibilities on things like roads, though. This is 'vertical fiscal imbalance' and it's already a considerable problem.

Up until the late 90s the states did actually levy the fuel excise, prior to another high court decision that meant the Federal Government had to do it instead.

 

[Quickst]

Okay, then Federal, not state, should be collecting consolidated revenue like they do for all other such taxes…no?

I actually think that it is easier for the States to collect it - they are already collecting Car registration. So the bureaucracy is already established. It just needs to be homogenised so all states are the same.

 

[schnaxxl]

Eventually every state will have their own RUC

possibly, but the form it takes ...

after the plaintiffs lose their High Court challenge, at which point their extraterritorial nature becomes irrelevant.

that's a confident assertion
I think the Commonwealth govt is supporting the plaintiffs?
there's a lot at stake beyond this immediate issue