Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[DJRas]

Assuming a settlement isn't reached out of court, what sort of time scale could we expect more news about the suit? A week? A month? Half a year?

Tesla must respond with 21 days.

 

[Chaserr]

I'd be tempted to avoid updating while the suit is in progress. If Tesla doesn't intend to do the right thing they will probably try to gradually increase you so it doesn't look like the previous cliff drop in reverse so they can claim it was Swamp gas from a weather balloon trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus

 

[VT_EE]

Never underestimate the value of independent, unaffected, observers. They often have more clarity. For me I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Clearly this action is sensible, but is not the point, WHY did Tesla only do it on SOME batteries and not others? I doubt anyone thinks it was just a case of random selection. Therefore it must be for a credible reason. My money is on because those batteries were 'different' to the thousands of other, older batteries, that they didn’t alter. So different that it required Tesla to take pre-emptive action. So different that Tesla went to the effort and expense of writing a complete update. How different do they have to be before they are classed as faulty or damaged; either faulty, or more prone to becoming faulty, or somewhere on that spectrum. This is where, not primarily the Warranty, but perhaps more Elon's promises that if ANYTHING went wrong, it would be Teslas Fault and they would repair or replace, comes into play. It was as close to a 'no questions asked' promise as it could be without actually stating it.

The argument that they did it for good reasons is, IMO, a distraction. If they had done it to the entire fleet, or entire pre facelift fleet, that might fly. But they didn’t. Only to about 0.5% of the fleet (based on UK figures). I find it hard not to conclude there is something amiss with the batteries in that 0.5%

Totally agree. IMO this whole damn problem is the result of a bunker mentality where they assume everyone is out to get them so they say nothing to anybody, including their own loyal customers. It is truly sad.

 

[Keshk]

I’m in the same boat as the S70 owner above.

I love my Model S which used to have the range and charging speeds that I was very happy with.

My original plan was to keep the car and replace it with a Model Y in two years.

Now I’m not so sure. Tesla has crippled my battery pack and devalued my car. It no longer meets my needs to the same degree and I am thinking about selling it on and never dealing with Tesla again.

How can anyone trust a company that operates in this way including making dubious statements about the affected batteries and hiding behind a battery warranty that doesn’t appear to be worth the paper it’s printed on.

Am I upset and annoyed? You bet I am. Am I going to take it lying down? No I’m not.

I am exactly the same boat like you. I never thought a reputable public company like Tesla will indulge in this non-transparent deceitful micky mouse stuff. I loved my S70, which is my first electric car. I will never go back and buy a non-electric car. Not Tesla though !!

 

[Chaserr]

I will never go back and buy a non-electric car. Not Tesla though !!

This is exactly where I'm at. Fortunately Tesla's moat with charging is vanishing thanks to Dieselgate. VW has to pay for all those CCS chargers and those are much faster than tesla's decreasing supercharging speeds; I can't even reach half-speed Urban charger's 70kW with all these recent downdate OTAs.

If Tesla wants us to buy a new car like so many suggest, Porsche needs to hurry up because I don't want the Audi truck.

 

[Droschke]

Dude, there's enough confusion going on in this thread. You don't need to cause more by spreading misinformation.

We are the impacted owners with no confusion at all. The confusion for others seems to have started when few detractors/disruptors entered the room wearing the Tesla Apologist hats.

How many miles have you lost? Oh, sorry, I just remembered, you have a brand new Model 3!

 

[bhzmark]

I answered the second question earlier in the thread. I even posted my teslafi graph. My 1074980-00-E replacement battery for my P85DL has been holding steady at 249 at 100 SOC for the last year+ and 15k miles at occasional super charging and applying all updates.

While I do not appear to affected by this update I was affected by other updates in the past that specifically affected ludi cars and then, like now, I also refrained from picking up the pitch fork until more facts were known, with the result that I avoided a lot of unnecessary upset.

Maybe my sharing my view will similarly help others avoid unnecessary upset.

Good luck with your upset.

I asked you 2 questions. You conveniently chose to answer the first one that you are a "credibility assessor" and are here to nitpick the absolute accuracy of every statement made by others (except the other haves of yours, of course) and totally ignoring the points being made behind those statements. I have news for you: that is not a helpful contribution to the context of this thread and the sentiment of the impacted owners. Stop it and go back watching the Perry Mason reruns.

Now, can you inconvenient yourself and answer the 2nd question I've already asked you: How many miles have you lost as the result of this capacity cap SW update? Answering this would be helpful to the context of this thread, I remind you.

 

[willow_hiller]

We are the impacted owners with no confusion at all. The confusion for others seems to have started when few detractors/disturbers entered the room wearing the Tesla Apologist hats.

How many miles have you lost? Oh, sorry, I just remembered, you have a brand new Model 3!

I didn't make any claims as to who is being confused. You have to admit that @Chaserr is spreading conspiracy theories in this thread by claiming wk057 is being silenced by Tesla. It's just not true, and wk057 refuted it themselves.

 

[boywonder]

How many miles have you lost? Oh, sorry, I just remembered, you have a brand new Model 3!

Those reading this thread who think they have no skin in the game should realise that the actions by those of us afffected to get Tesla to do the right thing by their customers ultimately benefits you in the long run.

Hopefully you’ll have a battery warranty actually worth something if and when you need it in the future.

And if you do, that might be (in part) due to this thread and the persistence and support of those affected working together for a resolution.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

So, i burned off a few kWh and again tried to charge to 100%
This time is stopped at 98.7%, 223 miles rated range, 61.8 kWh, 4.096 cell voltage.

So, still voltage capped, range limited, but up from a week ago (before 2019.28.2).

View attachment 440520 View attachment 440521

It’s good that it’s now going in the right direction, but of course full recovery will never happen until/unless they put Vmax back to 4.2V. So I wonder if this is just a ploy to show 'Yes we are working on it, and Yes we have already seen some recovery, Your Honor.'

Is being a Tesla owner turning me into a sceptic?

No, that’s the wrong tense.

 

[Guy V]

To me, the quoted article makes it clear that managing battery life is done in a variety of ways. It also talked about limiting “saturation” charge to increase battery life and reduce the chances of combustion. The methods are all over the map and using them is not indicative of if a defective battery. This type of research will be their exhibit A, and you will have to tell the judge why Tesla shouldn’t be able to limit peak battery charge on an older battery exhibiting stress while it’s OK for other battery users to do so. Using the “stole my battery capacity” argument isn’t going to fly when Tesla brings in battery experts (including outside experts) that actually know what they are talking about. Now, your other grievances are valid in my opinion. The abhorrent communications policy, used car advertised range, etc all need addressing. I’m still hoping Tesla has an epiphany and does right with you guys even if they could win the suit, similar to what Apple did. They have a chance to make some of you loyal customers but seem more interested in protecting their ego.

Now the usual suspects can click your disagree button

PS I love it when people disagree with the linking of an utterly neutral battery charging explanation. It really shows how closed minded some are.

You are (intentionally?) missing the main points of leverage of the lawsuit.

First it is bringing the public attention to this issue that Tesla ought to have been smart enough to avoid from the beginning simply by treating those suffering it forthrightly.

Second, as someone has pointed out in these many pages, Tesla will be most at legal risk from whatever is uncovered in discovery. There must be something there that they really don't want seen or they wouldn't be trying so extremely hard to keep it hidden.

 

[bhzmark]

Those reading this thread who think they have no skin in the game should realise that the actions by those of us afffected to get Tesla to do the right thing by their customers ultimately benefits you in the long run.

Hopefully you’ll have a battery warranty actually worth something if and when you need it in the future.

And if you do, that might be (in part) due to this thread and the persistence and support of those affected working together for a resolution.

Other things have been resolved simply with owners sharing their concerns with service, sometimes persistently, but that is the price of being on the bleeding edge, and not uncommon even with established OEMs.

I've always found, and others that I know have found, successful relief in pressing my case in the normal service channels -- including sharing information from teslalog or teslafi etc. Tesla service isn't at all perfect but I've experienced, and heard direct from numerous others, that they eventually get it right. And I'm in a position to rather easily escalate in other ways, but have never found the need.

There is no way to prove that the eventual resolution would not have occurred but for litigation. Tesla have resolved plenty of other issues simply by users sharing their concerns in the normal channels. The fact that someone resorted to litigation earlier than most people would only proves that their attorney talked them into it. I'd be curious to know whether the attorney is working on contingency or is being currently paid.

trying so extremely hard to keep it hidden.

I consider it a given, and hope others get this too, that Tesla battery tech and Tesla BMS tech is highly proprietary and valuable and is a key advantage of Tesla over other EVs. What exactly is the factual basis of your claim that Tesla is "trying extremely hard to keep it hidden" more than normal corporate responsibility and fiduciary duty to protect corporate technology and competitive advantage from harmful disclosure to competitors?

I wouldn't expect them to share proprietary information and shareholders would be disappointed if they did. They have already shared that they are working on a resolution to address the batteries with Z condition which was unexpected. They likely need time to get that right.

 

[Droschke]

So you originally said:

And have now corrected yourself:

Admitting that you lied.

Keep unmasking yourself.

And since I'm at it, how many miles you have lost (the third time I'm asking)?

 

[Droschke]

I answered the second question earlier in the thread. I even posted my teslafi graph. My 1074980-00-E replacement battery for my P85DL has been holding steady at 249 at 100 SOC for the last year+ and 15k miles at occasional super charging and applying all updates.

While I do not appear to affected by this update I was affected by other updates in the past that specifically affected ludi cars and then, like now, I also refrained from picking up the pitch fork until more facts were known, with the result that I avoided a lot of unnecessary upset.

Thanks for finally uttering the words regarding your lack of RM loss. That points to your lack of empathy for the impacted owners, especially today by questioning their credibility.

Maybe my sharing my view will similarly help others avoid unnecessary upset.

Good luck with your upset.

Quite the opposite. Sharing your insulting views (accusing others of lying by playing the role of the truth squad here) has made the impacted owners even more upset. The "Good luck with your upset" part is also telling. Please stop.

 

[VT_EE]

You are (intentionally?) missing the main points of leverage of the lawsuit.

First it is bringing the public attention to this issue that Tesla ought to have been smart enough to avoid from the beginning simply by treating those suffering it forthrightly.

Second, as someone has pointed out in these many pages, Tesla will be most at legal risk from whatever is uncovered in discovery. There must be something there that they really don't want seen or they wouldn't be trying so extremely hard to keep it hidden.

On you’re first point, My hope is that the lawsuit will get them to be more transparent. That’s the outcome I want. Having said that, I personally believe they should be allowed to manage the battery in a way that keeps it healthy to include the reduction of Vmax as long as the mileage loss is “reasonable” for a Li-ion battery. The definition of “reasonable” is only defined for the Model 3 unfortunately. Other battery users (device makers) do it according to that article I posted, so Tesla should also do it. The definitions of “reasonable range loss” and “battery degradation” will be discussed at length at any trial.

On the second point, Tesla says nothing about any problem. This is normal for the company so I’m not buying the conspiracy theory until I see some actual proof (ie emails or something) that clearly shows people at Tesla were intentionally trying to hose some class of owners. Tesla adjusts just about all values and metrics over time so that in itself is not indicative of malicious intent in my opinion.

 

[bhzmark]

Thanks for finally uttering the words regarding your lack of RM loss. That points to your lack of empathy for the impacted owners, especially today by questioning their credibility.

by "finally" you mean, "repeatedly"? I already said I had no range loss earlier. Have you no concern for getting any relevant details correct?

I have empathy for you being a walking upset waiting to happen and willing to disregard facts and relevant details so as to support your upset.

 

[Droschke]

You have to admit that @Chaserr is spreading conspiracy theories

No, I do not admit. As much as you can not prove what he is saying is really not the case. No reason to respond to me further.

 

[boywonder]

I've always found, and others that I know have found, successful relief in pressing my case in the normal service channels -- including sharing information from teslalog or teslafi etc. Tesla service isn't at all perfect but I've experienced, and heard direct from numerous others, that they eventually get it right. And I'm in a position to rather easily escalate in other ways, but have never found the need.

I couldn’t agree with you more. I generally have found my local SC very helpful and willing to help resolve issues.

In this particular case though, things feel different. My requests for information and resolution are responded to with replies that don’t answer my original question or get me closer to a resolution.

I will continue to work with the SC for a resolution relying on the combined efforts of others to get Tesla to support their customers.

I don’t advocate legal action except as a last resort after all other avenues are exhausted. As the only winners in legal disputes are the lawyers.

 

[Droschke]

I personally loved your disagree on my posting of a link explaining the various strategies companies use for managing batteries

I was returning your numerous favors.

BTW, you might have forgotten when I told you months ago that I'm done with you engaging any conversation with me. Don't waste your time

 

[fbitz777]

I consider it a given, and hope others get this too, that Tesla battery tech and Tesla BMS tech is highly proprietary and valuable and is a key advantage of Tesla over other EVs. What exactly is the factual basis of your claim that Tesla is "trying extremely hard to keep it hidden" more than normal corporate responsibility and fiduciary duty to protect corporate technology and competitive advantage from harmful disclosure to competitors?

Tesla BMS is a key advantage over which other EVS?...Maybe the LEAF.
I had 2 Ford Evs and 2 Bolt Evs and found them to be comparable if not even better in some respect...I have a 65kwh on my Bolt and get 60-61Kwh on a regular basis and it is clearly displayed to me as a driver without having to buy some CANbus reader.

Now my X75D gets at best 62Kwh (as far as I can interpolate) out of a 75Kwh battery (from about 68Kwh when new). I am only slightly affected as I only lost 7 miles suddenly after the update and seem to be the only X user in this forum.

BTW I am a Tesla shareholder but no a fanboy anymore (until they come out with Pickup Truck)