Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Evoforce]

No, I meant what I said: "depreciation would be taken into account" when calculating any possible reimbursement amount.

Then they will also have to take into consideration the many negatives that have transpired for all of us affected owners...

 

[lightningltd]

If there is going to be any reimbursement you can be sure that depreciation would be taken into account. What is the life of the battery/car? 8 years? 10? 15? 20? And how many years of use did you get?

That is the million dollar question. EVIDENCE suggests that those affected had 3-6% degradation and the value is STRONGLY tied to the battery.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Here is my take on this whole issue:
I bought a fully loaded 2013 S85 with all the options (that a standard model could have, no performance). I wanted the extra range. I paid a LOT more for the extra range, rather than saving money by buying an S60.
I made it clear from the start, that since I do a lot of travel that most of my charging would be high speed supercharging. They were happy to encourage me to use them all I wanted. They said that they would not harm the battery, since Tesla's BMS is the most advanced in the world and would not allow the battery to be harmed in any way.
They DID tell me that ALL lithium batteries have some gradual degradation over time. They also pointed to a blog post that stated that I could buy another battery at the end of the 8 year warrantee for a fixed price of $12,000.00 if I wanted a new fresh battery.
2013 Model S Price Increase
Throughout the life of the car, I watched degradation and also followed Teslas 20%-80% recommendation. My measured degradation remained below 5%.
All was fine and well. I took it around the entire US twice, showing how fast and easy it is. Many potential buyers came to see me on these trips and I was even invited to make stops at Tesla showrooms along the way. No issues at all.
I made many trips throughout California, Oregon, and Washington border to border and it was a breeze and FUN.

Then suddenly, with NO prior warning, notice, or permission, TESLA sent me (and others) update 2019.16. That same day (an hour after the update) when I went to charge, it got to 85% charge way faster than normal. I then set it to 90%. It got to 90% fast, but something was WAY off! The NAV was still telling me I needed another 10% to get to the next charger, when normally 85% was plenty! I looked at the RATED miles, and there was something definitely wrong. Rather than the normal 230 miles at 90%, I only showed 193 miles which, due to the cold and the bad weather would not be enough. I was missing over 16% of my battery suddenly! I called Tesla. They said they never heard of such a thing and advised me to get the car to Tesla. An hour later, I got a call back and was told nothing was wrong and it was normal degradation and made sure to stress that it was NOT fire related!
Needless to say, I was and am NOT happy. I had to end my annual road trip and return home, since I could no longer make it to the next destination, except in warm weather (barely).

Now I have to take shorter trips and they take MUCH longer than they used to. Rather than 11 hours to So Cal, now its 14-15 hours! WAY too much time charging. My acceleration is definitely not as fun as it was. This is NOT what was promised. This is NOT what the car was like a few months ago!

So for MY money, I followed ALL the recommendations that TESLA gave me. I did NOTHING that they would have said that I should not have done. THEY made the choice to SUDDENLY cap my battery. And to make matters worse after I complained, they reduced my charging speed by OVER 50% and still call it normal. If it were NORMAL, EVERYONE would be affected, not a 'few' as they claim.

The fault is on TESLA, not us or me. They NEVER warned ANYONE. They just did it. CLEARLY, Tesla thinks of this as an EMERGENCY action, since it was done so quickly. Still, all I and we get is double talk and denial. WHERE is the TESLA I bought from? Has it died and gotten taken over by American Motors????
Where is the SERVICE we came to expect from a PREMIUM car maker???
Where is my 'NO FAULT' Replacement PROMISED by Elon????
I guess promises mean NOTHING this day and age. My wallet is now CLOSED to Tesla unless they do the RIGHT thing.
Just my personal take.

Snap! Exactly how I feel.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Tesla is going to have to do something for people like you. The more I think about, the more I'm convinced some sort of compensation is needed if they have to leave these batteries capped. Even if the cap is someday eliminated, something should be done for the inconvenience. The fundamental problem is not the voltage limiting, it's the way it was done. Tesla might successfully argue that a cap is a legit BMS function (I agree with this to some extent), but that doesn't change the impact the sudden range reduction has had on some customers. Early Teslas were definitely science projects, but now that the company is on better footing, it's time to take care of the issues from those projects.

I have already had a Tesla tell me the BMS changes are a legit function as it lengthens the life of the battery. Said to me with real confidence. Plausible until you ask, if it is a legit function, why haven’t you done so to every battery? No answer, ever, to that one. My take on it is, it can ONLY be because there is an issue with the batteries they have taken pre-emptive action on.

I am not confident of an early solution. I am confident that either @DJRas's court case, or the process leading up to it (arbitration or disclosure) or the NHTSA investigations will result in some form of resolution by Tesla. I think there must be a real chance that they come to the conclusion that solving it is going to be less expensive than being found guilty. Sadly I think it is likely to require that sort of conclusion by them before they do the right thing. Quite what that resolution might be sits firmly in the crystal ball camp at the moment.

 

[hpartsch]

What to do?!?!? 2013 Model S 60 Battery fail

November: This individual's car gets a software update when taken into service for brakes/tire rotation.
Immediately loses 40 miles of range & gets battery charge limited error.
The next day - the battery will not charge.

Service appointment created: Battery has failed. Cost for replacement 11k (60 pack).

This might be how our packs will go out OR this could all be a coincidence that is failed a few months out of warranty/right after a software update. You decide.

 

[Chaserr]

Reimbursement is unlikely. A major reason we got the NHTSA involved was to make us whole, not partial. If they determine this is a recall issue (And Tesla already said it was in response to fires before they downgraded anyone) partial reimbursement is not a legal response and repairs or replacements that are at least equal if not better than original parts must be used. If Tesla convinces them this is a warranty issue rather than a recall, the same limitations apply - they must repair or replace with equal or better than original.

The law sides with Tesla owners here no matter how this goes. If it is a safety recall, we get back 100%. If it is warranty, we get back 100%. If it is neither, we get back 100% simply because if there is no reason for the cap, the cap gets uninstalled. Partial reimbursement is essentially impossible due to how Tesla mishandled this entire series of events. They forced their own hand before it was even a known problem, and consumer protection laws exist to stop companies from exactly this kind of predatory abusive practice.

 

[liamharry]

OK quick question as planning a long trip in two weeks time, where I will probably need to start at 90% SoC and then stop at three!! SuC’s on the way as well as topping up off of a domestic 10 amp outlet whilst away for the week.

As in my case my Max voltage has been capped from 4.2V to 4.099V, what is the ‘shutdown’ voltage? Is it 3V? Appreciate easiest thing to do is stay above 10% SoC or higher, but curious if this has been changed as well.

I am aware on the forums of one person whose car shutdown at 13% SoC still showing, possibly a bad module, but a also some others when they have been in the 3-5% range as well. I have on the odd occasion gone down to 2-3% on a long trip and been OK with about 5 miles still showing.

I think the lowest I have managed to see with the TM Spy is 3.35V at 5.2% SoC.

 

[Chaserr]

That's a good question. Bjorn posted a video showing Tesla had capped the bottom of his Model 3 as well so we know they're doing it. I don't know if it was done on our cars yet. I saw some graphs of low SOC volt readings earlier in this thread, but I don't know if those are still valid.

 

[BigNick]

Today my car is at the Tilburg Service Center for resetting the generation 1 TPMS sensors. (This is not the assembly ‘factory’, but the SeC and Store location just around the corner.)
Of course they ask if there are any other concerns with the car. So I mention Battery and Charge Gate. To my surprise I didn’t get the boilerplate answer/denial. They owned up to the ill effects of the software interventions on my type of car. The message is that Tesla is still sorting out what to do with this group of cars. Apparently some resolution will be reached, but I was advised not to hold my breath...

[EDIT: typo]

Is it possible that Tesla is battling Panasonic over some of the issues with regards to defective 18650 cells?

 

[liamharry]

That's a good question. Bjorn posted a video showing Tesla had capped the bottom of his Model 3 as well so we know they're doing it. I don't know if it was done on our cars yet. I saw some graphs of low SOC volt readings earlier in this thread, but I don't know if those are still valid.

Thanks. I know the pg1 sticky says Vmin is 3.12V, but didn’t know if this is ‘shutdown’ or sometime before. Is 3.12V bricking and the 4kWh buffer keeps us some way off of that. More to the point as you say - has the bottom end been changed.

 

[What Gas]

Today my car is at the Tilburg Service Center for resetting the generation 1 TPMS sensors. (This is not the assembly ‘factory’, but the SeC and Store location just around the corner.)
Of course they ask if there are any other concerns with the car. So I mention Battery and Charge Gate. To my surprise I didn’t get the boilerplate answer/denial. They owned up to the ill effects of the software interventions on my type of car. The message is that Tesla is still sorting out what to do with this group of cars. Apparently some resolution will be reached, but I was advised not to hold my breath...

[EDIT: typo]

Interesting that they owned up. I’m bringing my car in next week so they can thoroughly run more diagnostics on the battery. Long story short, when I was on the phone with Tesla and raised the battery issue...they indicated that they weren’t aware of the issues

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Reimbursement is unlikely. A major reason we got the NHTSA involved was to make us whole, not partial. If they determine this is a recall issue (And Tesla already said it was in response to fires before they downgraded anyone) partial reimbursement is not a legal response and repairs or replacements that are at least equal if not better than original parts must be used. If Tesla convinces them this is a warranty issue rather than a recall, the same limitations apply - they must repair or replace with equal or better than original.

The law sides with Tesla owners here no matter how this goes. If it is a safety recall, we get back 100%. If it is warranty, we get back 100%. If it is neither, we get back 100% simply because if there is no reason for the cap, the cap gets uninstalled. Partial reimbursement is essentially impossible due to how Tesla mishandled this entire series of events. They forced their own hand before it was even a known problem, and consumer protection laws exist to stop companies from exactly this kind of predatory abusive practice.

I would love my solution to be my old 70 pack replaced by an 85 battery pack that has been capped to 70. Perfect. I SO hope you are right.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

OK quick question as planning a long trip in two weeks time, where I will probably need to start at 90% SoC and then stop at three!! SuC’s on the way as well as topping up off of a domestic 10 amp outlet whilst away for the week.

As in my case my Max voltage has been capped from 4.2V to 4.099V, what is the ‘shutdown’ voltage? Is it 3V? Appreciate easiest thing to do is stay above 10% SoC or higher, but curious if this has been changed as well.

I am aware on the forums of one person whose car shutdown at 13% SoC still showing, possibly a bad module, but a also some others when they have been in the 3-5% range as well. I have on the odd occasion gone down to 2-3% on a long trip and been OK with about 5 miles still showing.

I think the lowest I have managed to see with the TM Spy is 3.35V at 5.2% SoC.

I don’t know what the bottom level is. Are you asking because you are worried Tesla may have changed that as well? I’m not sure knowing the bottom Voltage is an advantage. But whatever it is, it will be Vmin, therefore 0% on the battery icon. You can’t easily overcome dodgy modules which have the car shutting down when it’s still showing above 0%. If it’s not your day, it’s not your day.

 

[Chaserr]

If you have to drive all the way to 0%, be gentle with acceleration. Volts drop from power use momentarily, and at very low SOC a surge in use can trip shutdown. Tesla is probably a little smarter than most devices and may have some tolerances coded in but this is how most electronics work.

 

[liamharry]

I don’t know what the bottom level is. Are you asking because you are worried Tesla may have changed that as well? I’m not sure knowing the bottom Voltage is an advantage. But whatever it is, it will be Vmin, therefore 0% on the battery icon. You can’t easily overcome dodgy modules which have the car shutting down when it’s still showing above 0%. If it’s not your day, it’s not your day.

More asking to see if Tesla had also changed the bottom voltage limit through anyone’s real world experience or diagnostics in addition to capping the top. The top seems to have been relatively obvious for those impacted (perhaps more in time and more slowly), but just didn’t want to be caught out with car shutting down at a low state of charge.

Thanks for responses anyway.

 

[r1200gs4ok]

What to do?!?!? 2013 Model S 60 Battery fail

November: This individual's car gets a software update when taken into service for brakes/tire rotation.
Immediately loses 40 miles of range & gets battery charge limited error.
The next day - the battery will not charge.

Service appointment created: Battery has failed. Cost for replacement 11k (60 pack).

This might be how our packs will go out OR this could all be a coincidence that is failed a few months out of warranty/right after a software update. You decide.

sounds like a Tesla planned event......not coincidence...

 

[Ferrycraigs]

More asking to see if Tesla had also changed the bottom voltage limit through anyone’s real world experience or diagnostics in addition to capping the top. The top seems to have been relatively obvious for those impacted (perhaps more in time and more slowly), but just didn’t want to be caught out with car shutting down at a low state of charge.

Thanks for responses anyway.

I don’t have the courage to operate way down there. Perhaps now that we have such small batteries now, we should get used to it. Every chance it may happen more frequently than before.

 

[Chaserr]

Is it possible that Tesla is battling Panasonic over some of the issues with regards to defective 18650 cells?

If they were they wouldn't have hidden the issue from the NHTSA. Panasonic might be forced to cover warranty costs if it's their fault but they can't be held accountable for committing the crimes Tesla committed covering it up and I don't think Tela would want to pay those fines or risk employee imprisonment over a Panasonic problem.

 

[What Gas]

Question about degradation.
I ordered the obd and dongle to test my 2015 85D’s cells, which I assume is capped.

My car is rated to charge up to 270 miles @ 100% charge, which charged up to 258 as of this past May-June. Since then it charges up to 248-250, which I assume it’s because of the software updates..

I typically charge to 80%, which should give me 216 miles. However it gives 200-203 range.

My question is...is degradation solely based on the 270 mile rated capacity only, or both the 270 mile rate capacity and 15 mile discrepancy when I charge to 80%?

 

[Gixx1300R]

If they were they wouldn't have hidden the issue from the NHTSA. Panasonic might be forced to cover warranty costs if it's their fault but they can't be held accountable for committing the crimes Tesla committed covering it up and I don't think Tela would want to pay those fines or risk employee imprisonment over a Panasonic problem.

I remember reading a story that stated hundreds of thousands of early batteries had to be scrapped due to contamination. I cant remember where I read it since it was so long ago.