BigNick
Infamous Fat Sweaty Guy
Try charging to 75% instead of 80%. When I made this change, my pump stopped running after a charge.
(HPWC, USA single-phase 240V/40A)
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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
- Thread starter Dutchmeeuw
- Start date
(HPWC, USA single-phase 240V/40A)
Do we really know it's viable? Selling cars for roughly $60k each, guestimate of average sales price 3, S, and X combined, that so far only last 5 to 6 years before the battery is crippled by either chargegate, battery gate or normal degradation seems like an unsustainable business model vs people's expectations of 15 to 20 year longevity. Combined with not honoring the warranty and its a matter of time till the masses also experience these issues and sales dry up. Right now we, model S and X owners, are ignored since it's considered old battery tech and people seem to think their beloved 3 are immune to these issues. Also stock price is not necessarily a reflection of confidence in a company but could also be traders making a quick buck by riding the stock up and dumping it as soon as it starts to drop.
I actually never expected that my EV battery would last 15 to 20 years when I bought my cars.. I would be fine with 100k miles and 8 years.
What I expected though is that replacement batteries would be a no available reasonably priced after 8 years. For all I computed the gas and maintenance savings and free charging would be worth it.
Is any battery technology even feasible that would last 15 years even with little miles?
islandbayy
Active Member
100,000 miles is nothing, neither is 8 years.
As we don't really have any vehicles to compare our cars batteries to, lets compare to my own equipment and tools and computers that I have that are aging. (Hang in with me on this)
My first laptop, Received on October 21, 1998. I still have it. It still works, and use it for retro computer games on Windows 1998 SE. It spent most of its useful life on battery. It's mostly been stored since 2008 when the LCD screen's backlight burned out. The lithium battery was stored at ~50% SOC. I haven't touched it in about 3 years. So for the purpose of this discussion, I just went and powered it on. Other than a low clock battery warning (A CR2032 cell, same as in the Model S FOB), still had 38% battery power after that storage. The original battery remembers. I did benchmark the batter before storage, and it was holding about 80% of it's designed (LABEL) capacity.
My moms old laptop, a older than my first one, Toshiba Sattelite 2032, originally Windows 95 upgraded to 1998, it's a POS, but had serial ports, so I used them for programming electric car motor controllers. I still use it every few months. Improperly stored on a shelf in my garage. Battery still holds about 60% of its original charge after 23 years. Also spent most of its life on battery power then recharged.
My cordless Craftsman NexTec drills. When I had my Motorcycle & Electric Car shop, I had one setup as a screw gun, the other as a socket driver. Both would be drained once-two times/day, and they even had a drill equivalent of a supercharger, that would get me 25% charge in 2 minutes. These are small 12v drills, 3x 18650 cells. HARD and HEAVY use for a solid 4 years before I closed my shop down. I still have and use these drills at least a couple times/week. Still original batteries. I also use the same batteries on a portable shop vac, oscillating multi-tool and auto hammer. Cells are rated at 1.5 ah, and as of last summer, the 9/10 year old cells still test out on my benchmark unit at 1.3ah. Not bad at all.
My home Vacuum, Hoover 18v something or other, cant remember the exact name, excellent vacuum until wife demanded a Dyson V10 this past summer for her birthday (Gave the Hoover to my mom). About 6 years old. Battery discharged once/day to once/two days. And those batteries got pretty hot if you ran it the full cycle. Never benchmarked, but run time was about 20 minutes when new, and was about 18 minutes when I gave them to my mom.
My old Dell Mini 9 Netbook. Tiny little bugger, but so so useful, had full install of XP on it. Used the heck out of that at my shop, as it was small enough to fit in the pocket of my cargo pants. During the summer months, it would be on the battery from 10 am to 5pm, from May-mid September. Got it in 2008 as a special Dell deal. That battery held with that use for 3 years. 100% Charge then about 10% left when it got plugged in before closing for the evening. Now, this one was a special case. The BATTERY was still good, HOWEVER, Dell programmed in planned obsolescence. After XX to -XXX number of battery cycles, it would artificially reduce battery capacity, until eventually, it would not run off battery at all. After it finally got to that point where it would not run off battery at all, at about 5 year mark, I opened the battery pack, 4x 18650 cells, and benchmarked AND load-tested each one. Well WTF, tested at 95% of the label's stated capacity! What a crock of crap... Got replacement after market battery for it, one that did not have that planned obsolesce in it, and it's been good to go ever since. I use it now for monitoring my Bitcoin miners. At idle, it only draws 1-2 watts, at full usage, about 10 watts. Intel Atom, amazing processors!
My WORX lawn tools, 20v batteries, going on 6 years with them, still chugging away. No noticeable runtime loss. I can tell as the smaller battery is enough to do my front sidewalk with my trimmer, and just barely use the blower to blow the trimmings, and timing when it runs out of power is just about the same. The Medium battery I have is enough to trim my 7 1/2" Ride on railroad train track in the back yard, go all the way around twice, to trim the grass growing on each rail (450 ft of track, so 900 ft of trimming to go around twice). The LARGE battery is enough for my Jawsaw to cut a cord of firewood, and then blow the sawdust onto the lawn when done before it's dead, and still holding. Heavily used tools and batteries.
My Sunjoe/Snowjoe tools & batteries. I use the living heck out of my Sunjoe 40v 16' chainsaw all summer. Parents have a motel on a lake in the midwest's largest tourist city, Wisconsin Dells, and they provide a campfire each night. So I cut ALL the wood with my Sunjoe chainsaw. Probably 20-30 cords of wood/summer from May through end of September, then also cut my own firewood for the winter (Yes, I use all already downed wood from storms, tree trimmers etc... for both home and the Motel. The area gets a lot of downed trees after storms, so firewoods a plenty!). Now, the same batteries work for my Snowjoe Snowblower. So all winter, I use a combination of my chainsaw, and my snowblower. Same batteries, going on 6 years. I tested each one down to the watt-hour for capacity when new. after 6 years, each of my two batteries has lost about 20 Watt-Hours.
So, what was the purpose of this huge post? Heres my point.
Tesla batteries, realistically, are BABIED in comparison to other batteries. With the BMS controlling temperatures, both keeping the batteries cool, and warm as needed. Keeping the cells balanced and in their happy place. Controlling charge rates more logically from start to finish. And also the sheer number of cells, keeping the demand on any single cell fairly low except in the most demanding of situations (Such as Wide Open Throttle), these cells are well taken care of. Sure they are in a car, but compare to even a cordless drill battery. It's thrown carelessly in a tool bad, dropped on the concrete, run and run and run until HOT HOT HOT.
Heck, even supercharging isn't REALLY the most stressful thing on these batteries. Commenting based on the older 120kW charge rate, not the newer 250kW whatever. Based on the 120kW charge rate, a 85kWh or 90kWh pack, each cell is getting charged at 16-17 Watt at PEAK charge rate. Heck, my 12v Nextec drill charger charges at 15 watt/cell, at normal charge rate, and if I hit that boost button, we're looking at about 41-45 watt/cell for a solid two minutes (At about 125 watt output to boost charge the 3 cell pack) with No Thermal Management what so ever.
Based on how well taken care of a Tesla pack is supposed to be, other than a manufacturing defect, if the BMS does it's JOB, I would expect at least 20 years of USEABLE decent range and performance out of my pack and 400-500,000 miles before I should even need to consider a replacement.
WIth low mileage, if stored or kept at a lower, say, 50-70% SOC, I personally don't see why someone couldn't expect 20-30 years out of the pack, barring manufacturing defect, or component failure elsewhere. The cells are supposed to be formulated for EV use, and the demands of a EV. And at the price point of these vehicles, and the ground up design for their purpose, I don't think I'm too far out there in thinking that.
/End_Caffine_Fuled_Rant_That_Was_Sparked_By_Something_Completly_Unrelated_To_The_Quoted_Post_Apologies
Yes ideally, however this depends on the defect rate of the cells.
With a battery made up of thousands of cells, the likelihood of a failure increases, as recent events seems to confirm.
And yet they aren't lasting like they should. Likely due to over 7000 cells vs 6 to 12 in a cordless drill or lawnmower. If a few get out of balance it seems they could limit the rest of the pack.
islandbayy
Active Member
If that were the case for batteries, the EV industry would be doomed. The whole value proposition of being cheaper to maintain than an ICE flies out the window if you have to replace the battery pack every 100,000 miles or 8 years. That's insane.
I completely and totally agree with you. If an EV cannot last 8 years and 100,000 miles without requiring an expensive battery swap, the EV revolution is over before it even began. Even I would go back to an ICE if that were true. I bought my Model S expecting far more than 100,000 miles and 8 years of service life. If it can't match at least that of an ICE, then it's useless.
glhs272
Unnamed plug faced villian
I have over 160K miles on my original 60kwh battery and it's still working just fine. ..Chargegate issue aside... So doing 100K+ miles should not be a problem with Tesla batteries. Not sure why we are even talking about this.
Hey I am just basing this on 1000 charge cycles and that I usually get 100-125mi a cycle (X75 assuming 20-90% cycle)
I had a Ford Focus EV with 80 mi range and no one ever got above 50k miles on it. Great car and great BMS, just a lots of cycles. That battery was like 14k to replace (on a sub 30k car). To me that was fine (although I did not keep it that long).
To me a 20 percent degradation is when my car become useless (range) and I would not mind getting a new battery.
Just a data point from what I believe to be a reasonable person (me): I bought mine with an expectation of 6 physical years of service @ 30k miles per year with an expected 1% degradation per 12k miles (1% per year equivalent to an average driver). Mind you, the 1% per year was the number that Tesla was quoting at the sales level back in 2014-2016. After the 6 years, I really hadn't made any plans save for continuing to drive it barring any major mechanical problems, or more hopefully, paying Tesla to put in a new battery, assuming battery tech had improved in that time to make an upgrade to an otherwise perfectly functional car worthwhile.
The 90D brand new in 2016 charged to 294 on day 1. Fast forward to 4 years and 110k miles later, a full charge gets me 246 miles (17% degradation), add to that, unable to charge past 95% some days and 98% other days, nerfed 90kw supercharge rates (I know, others are worse), and I am left kinda wondering as well if this EV revolution is really happening.
And I will note that even if a battery swap isn't required, I would still like to see an upgrade offered to get me up into that 300 mile range. Take my money.
All those impacted by the voltage capping at (well) below 100K miles don't find their batteries "still working just fine"
It's not really about the car still moving.One thing you could be missing is that the cars display of full charge range might be total fiction. My 2016 90D still shows a full charge range nearly like new even though my usable battery capacity is down to 72-73 kwh. The cars display of full charge range appears designed to conceal battery degradation.
20% gradual/normal degradation, you will eventually get. 20% sudden range loss due to the imposed voltage capping no one would find acceptable (the whole essence of this thread!).
Folks: This thread is about the sudden loss of range due to an imposed voltage capping of our batteries. Mixing up the expected, normal, or gradual battery pack degradation by age is just confusing the discourse. Let's just stay on the topic. Can we?
thesnooch
Member
From the class action complaint, case no. 5:19-cv-4596, Dkt. 1, ¶¶ 55-62:
D. Tesla Throttles Battery Charging Speeds and Manipulates Range Calculations
55. Upon information and belief, and by and through the further investigation of Plaintiff and counsel for Plaintiff, Tesla uses various formulas to determine what the rated mileage range for its vehicles should be. Upon information and belief, Tesla has used a calculation of 295 watt-hours/mile for all Model S 85 RWD vehicles, multiplied by the total amount of usable battery capacity to determine what the total number of rated miles are.
56. The relationship between rated range and battery capacity in kWh is well known in the community to be a fixed constant multiplier of 295wh/mi (for Model S 85 kWh RWD cars) and is not related in any way to how the car is driven or the environment. Upon information and belief, this fixed constant multiplier is what Tesla used or uses to determine the estimated mileage ratings for its vehicles. This fixed constant variable is relied upon when calculating the EPA range estimates that Tesla prominently advertises, represents, and displays to consumers, and can be seen as displayed on the “Moroney Label” that is displayed on new vehicles for sale.
57. Upon information and belief, Tesla has lowered the number for the fixed constant variable, which has the practical effect of giving the illusion that more miles are available. Customers like Plaintiff and the other putative class members relied upon the number of miles that Tesla represented to them. However, what they didn’t know after purchasing the Class Vehicles is that Tesla has the ability to manipulate the number that was used to calculate mileage in order to avoid having to provide warranty battery replacements.
58. Upon further information and belief, Tesla fraudulently and unlawfully manipulated and pushed out a software update prior to February 2019 (actual update date is unknown at this time), which contained changes to the battery management system software, by replacing the variable previously used for energy consumption, or, 295 Wh/mi. Upon further information and belief, the energy consumption constant was reduced to 276 Wh/mi, for subject vehicles which in effect, would artificially increase the number of rated miles displayed for Plaintiff’s car.
59. Upon information and belief, and by and through the further investigation by Plaintiff and counsel for Plaintiff, Tesla has used this 295Wh/mi constant to determine the numbers it provides to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and has also used this variable to calculate the fleet-wide average of maximum rated mileage. This fixed constant variable was also used to determine the EPA’s estimated mileage rating of 265 miles of rated range. The Tesla Model S 85 is advertised as an “85 battery”, however, it is widely and publicly known that the Model S 85 consists of a battery pack that contains approximately 81 kWh, with only 78.1 kWh available and usable for powering the vehicle.
60. Upon investigation of Plaintiff and Plaintiff’s counsel it has become apparent that Tesla has fraudulently and/or deceptively lowered the fixed constant variable and now uses a lower watt-hour/mi variable rate a lower watt-hour/mi variable rate. The practical effect of doing so means that the total number of miles in terms of maximum range for Plaintiff’s car will display a higher number. If Tesla had used the same fixed variable rate of 295 Wh/mi, then Plaintiff’s car would then be calculated as having approximately 204 rated miles. Instead, Tesla fraudulently and unlawfully lowered this fixed variable number in order to give the illusion that Plaintiff’s car had more miles at maximum range. Doing so gives Tesla the excuse to avoid its duty and legal obligations to replace the battery of Plaintiff’s vehicle, as well as other members of the putative classes.
61. Tesla attempts to further escape from its legal obligations by using confusing terms and relies on terms such as “Rated Miles” or “Rated Range”, when the actual term that Tesla should be using is Battery Capacity calculated by the kilowatt-hour (kWh). Tesla does not display the amount of battery capacity kWh on any user information display available on the vehicle. Owners are only given access to the displayed percentage and rated range as displayed on the vehicle display.
62. Using this data obtained from multiple Tesla Model S 85 vehicles it is clear that the battery in Plaintiff’s vehicle and Class Vehicles display their rated Range based on the BMS reporting the Nominal Remaining kWh minus the Battery Brick Buffer (4 kWh) divided by the discovered constant of 276 Wh/mile. This calculation has proved consistent with multiple vehicles.
To put it simpler: This thread is about desecration. Degradation is off-topic!
I'll put out the idea that Tesla could give battery/charge gate owners a new battery, sell the original battery for stationary storage, and make $$$ and happy customers all at the same time.
This cycle could repeat every 10 years as batteries get cheaper, and grid storage is more in demand.
Even a really bad 85 pack is still 60kwh and can take 36kw charging. Those are great numbers for stationary storage. A Powerwall is $7,000 for 13kwh.
This cycle could repeat every 10 years as batteries get cheaper, and grid storage is more in demand.
Even a really bad 85 pack is still 60kwh and can take 36kw charging. Those are great numbers for stationary storage. A Powerwall is $7,000 for 13kwh.
The problem with selling defective cells is they would risk further degradation or fire.
