Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[DJRas]

I always use the energy display so can't say right now about the others, but according to CAN bus my full rated range is 501km and full typical range is 401km. The original rated range (NEDC) was 528km so it doesn't seem like the Vmax capping is reflected in these values.

Outside of the US Typical Range is the appropriate one to use (that is the same as Rated range in the US).

 

[cpa]

I thought a mediator only facilitated negotiation they didn't actually decide anything. (That would be arbitration.) In this case @DJRas, and his lawyer, would decide the fate of the meditation.

Correct. I was implying that the mediator would evaluate Tesla's responses and counter arguments for DJ and his team to consider before accepting the mediated settlement or rejecting it. Sorry if my prose was vague.

 

[Jcarlson]

Not anymore -- now manufacturers must use the WLTP number.

For new cars, yes. In that post I was simply referring to our pre-facelift Teslas that use the (impossible to attain) NEDC number on the display just for comparison purposes.

 

[sixela]

Ah yes -- correct. Not that the WLTP is any more attainable; I've taught my wife to pop up the energy app to get a more realistic appraisal of the situation.

 

[ekkeman]

Oye. I just did the calculation from the first page of this thread, and I've got 66.7kWh in my P85 (130,000 miles).

My P90D Model X (60,000 miles) has 77kWh. My Model X charges to 199 miles at 90%.

Does anyone know where I can get one of those CaC/time (calculated average capacity) graphs? I want to see the change over time.

Does anyone know what a P85 started at new? From what I understand it was less than 85kWh.

 

[FURY]

Hi All!

I have a 2014 S85 32K miles, that took 2hours 37 minutes to charge from 11% to 98 % (set to 100% however). rated miles @ 98%-231miles. checked yesterday at 68% charge and I had lost 19% battery capacity.

Today I saw several warning messages on the instrument cluster with yellow flashing triangles:

Regenerative Braking Disabled
Traction Control Disabled-drive with Caution
Emergency Braking Disabled
Stability Control Disabled-Drive with Caution
Park Assist Disabled
AutoSteer Disabled
ABS Disabled

The first message was the Regenerative Braking Disabled, which made me think of a battery issue. Any advice/comment?

Thank you very much
FURY

 

[Gixx1300R]

Oye. I just did the calculation from the first page of this thread, and I've got 66.7kWh in my P85 (130,000 miles).

My P90D Model X (60,000 miles) has 77kWh. My Model X charges to 199 miles at 90%.

Does anyone know where I can get one of those CaC/time (calculated average capacity) graphs? I want to see the change over time.

Does anyone know what a P85 started at new? From what I understand it was less than 85kWh.

If I remember correctly a P85 had 81kWh with a 4Kwh buffer for a total of 85kWh when the battery pack was new

 

[Jcarlson]

Hi All!

I have a 2014 S85 32K miles, that took 2hours 37 minutes to charge from 11% to 98 % (set to 100% however). rated miles @ 98%-231miles. checked yesterday at 68% charge and I had lost 19% battery capacity.

Today I saw several warning messages on the instrument cluster with yellow flashing triangles:

Regenerative Braking Disabled
Traction Control Disabled-drive with Caution
Emergency Braking Disabled
Stability Control Disabled-Drive with Caution
Park Assist Disabled
AutoSteer Disabled
ABS Disabled

The first message was the Regenerative Braking Disabled, which made me think of a battery issue. Any advice/comment?

Thank you very much
FURY

Regen is disabled also when traction/stability control is disabled. Since ABS is disabled it seems more like an issue with a wheel sensor or something like that.

 

[omarsultan]

If I remember correctly a P85 had 81kWh with a 4Kwh buffer for a total of 85kWh when the battery pack was new

I think Jason's numbers were something like 77.5 kWh usable + 4 kWh buffer for the 85 kWh packs. If you do the math with the efficiency coefficient (265 miles * 300 w/mi) you end up at 79.5 kWh usable.

 

[JRP3]

Oye. I just did the calculation from the first page of this thread, and I've got 66.7kWh in my P85 (130,000 miles).

My P90D Model X (60,000 miles) has 77kWh. My Model X charges to 199 miles at 90%.

Does anyone know where I can get one of those CaC/time (calculated average capacity) graphs? I want to see the change over time.

Does anyone know what a P85 started at new? From what I understand it was less than 85kWh.

Tesla's 85 kWh rating needs an asterisk (up to 81 kWh, with up to ~77 kWh usable)

Extrapolate this out: 7104 * 11.36 = 80,701 Wh (80.7 kWh) for the "85" pack cell count, and 5376 * 11.36 = 61,071 Wh (~61.1 kWh) for the "60" pack. This means the "85" rating is short by at least 5%, and the "60" rating is under-rated by at least 2%.

Sounds small, but here's some more data.

This means that the "85" pack is "missing" about 4.3 kWh of capacity. That's about 14 miles of range.

"Oh, but it's a buffer... the anti-brick thing, wk!"

Glad you brought that up. Since I did my cell testing outside of the Tesla BMS and anti-brick stuff, I was able to discharge them well beyond what Tesla's setup would normally allow. So, no anti-brick buffer screwing with my tests.

 

[Chaserr]

If I remember correctly a P85 had 81kWh with a 4Kwh buffer for a total of 85kWh when the battery pack was new

You went backward. 81kwh total with 77kwh usable after subtracting the buffer.

I think the numbers you used were for the 90kwh pack. It was closer to a real 85. That's why it's interesting they label that new 88kwh battery as an 85 since by their previous math should have a 95 label on it.

 

[Gixx1300R]

I think Jason's numbers were something like 77.5 kWh usable + 4 kWh buffer for the 85 kWh packs. If you do the math with the efficiency coefficient (265 miles * 300 w/mi) you end up at 79.5 kWh usable.

You went backward. 81kwh total with 77kwh usable after subtracting the buffer.

I think the numbers you used were for the 90kwh pack. It was closer to a real 85. That's why it's interesting they label that new 88kwh battery as an 85 since by their previous math should have a 95 label on it.

You guys are correct

 

[gmo43]

Recently I got an error message at Superchargers 'Unable to DC fast charge'. It happened at different locations and sometimes when I plug in and sometimes in the middle of a charge session. It happened too many times recently to be random. Anyone else getting this message?

What firmware update are you on that it gave you that message?

 

[mjmiron]

Can you link to your post? So they replaced your battery because it was voltage capped and supercharging was slow? Or was there any additional reasons? Because I'm heavily affected by both and Tesla told my battery is just fine.

It’s like 400 posts back basically I complained due to just buying the car and loosing so much range like 28 miles. I worked with the local service center and they escalated it. After waiting on corporate they finally did a good will replacement

 

[Ferrycraigs]

I have been under the assumption that "rated range" in european cars refers to the NEDC number, which is 528km for a S85D. The "typical range" number, which is lower, is somewhat closer to reality but still very optimistic for highway driving (the lifetime consumption of my car is around 230Wh/km). I'm not sure what test cycle the EU "typical" value is based on, EPA converted to km?

It seems to me that the current rated range is only affected by normal Ah degradation and still displays the now unattainable 4,2V/100% range due to voltage capping. In this case, a 5% reduction in rated range is not sufficient to explain the full reduction of battery capacity in kWh.

Firstly I don’t believe Rated and NEDC are in any way linked.

I agree Typical is closer to Reality, but still misses the target.

Rated Range is ONLY affected by capacity. It is a fixed consumption rate so it’s a simple 'how much is left in the battery' divided by that consumption rate. I have a feeling it’s about 295 ish Wh/mi, but I’m not certain.

The 100% figure is purely a reflection of the Vmax setting. Before batterygate capping my 100% represented 69 kWhs. That was when Vmax was set at 4.2V. After capping my Vmax was set at 4.09V and my 100% figure represented 59kWhs. Consequently my real world range reduced, my Rated Range reduced and my Typical Range reduced. The Why This Happens is explained fully in the WiKi on Page 1 of this thread.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Wasn’t there that kind of case in this thread? Replacement battery was also limited until Tesla cleared the logs...

Not necessarily charging history per se, but “ill status”.

That’s why it would be interesting to see the BUSBAR readouts.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Oye. I just did the calculation from the first page of this thread, and I've got 66.7kWh in my P85 (130,000 miles).

My P90D Model X (60,000 miles) has 77kWh. My Model X charges to 199 miles at 90%.

Does anyone know where I can get one of those CaC/time (calculated average capacity) graphs? I want to see the change over time.

Does anyone know what a P85 started at new? From what I understand it was less than 85kWh.

The Total and Useable capacities are shown here.

 

[CalBlue 85D]

Regarding Coolant pumps running while car is idle. So, as some of us have noticed, the coolant pumps run a lot more than they used to. This seems to be related to State of Charge (SOC) and other factors. It also happens after charging even when I have a relatively cool battery. I also notice the coolant pumps run at a higher %, i.e. full blast when driving the car and the battery is relatively cool.

My uninformed wild guess is that it's not doing it to cool the battery at all. Rather it is just to confirm cell temp uniformity. The BMS on the older batteries like mine only has temperature sensors on two cells per module. One glued to a cell near the coolant inlet and near the coolant outlet. So the BMS doesn't have a picture of cell temps in the rest of the module, say the middle of the module. My guess is that Tesla found a situation/condition where a cell, (a bad cell perhaps) is getting hot and the BMS doesn't know it. This condition would be possible if the coolant pumps were idle, thus the hot cell would not dissipate heat to the rest of the module very well. So to mitigate they run the pumps continuously where there is any possibility of this happening. This allows the BMS to have a good idea of the whole module temperature, as long as the pumps are running. Those conditions are high state of charge, charging (even AC charging with a relatively cold battery), and driving. Perhaps other conditions as well.

This morning I charged to 95% on a HPWC and disconnected the charging cable. The car continued to make a whirring noise, which I assume is the coolant pumps, and when I returned home 12 hours later the pumps were still running. The battery went from 95% to 90% during that time, so the power loss is significant.

This will be a real problem for those of us living in areas where the power utility is conducting planned blackouts. I can't charge the car up in anticipation of a power loss and maintain that charge for very long. Not good.

 

[omarsultan]

Has anyone opened a service request on the pumps running and gotten an official response on that?

 

[Droschke]

Has anyone opened a service request on the pumps running and gotten an official response on that?

I did back in June of last year. The response was not to worry about it since the car performs maintenance routines on its own - all normal.