Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[ucmndd]

What language exactly, in this post, implies speculation?



This is just one example - there are literally dozens of others.

We’ve now reached the point of impasse in the conversation where very clear responses with an explicit and easy to follow question are rated “funny” by the person they’re directed at and not answered.

Shocking.

 

[Droschke]

@Chaserr states his opinion, which involves due speculations. He is entitled to his opinion and speculates as he wishes. He is not, however, entitled to his own facts and he has not claimed that to be the case. The real problem is not with the people who are talking, the way I see it, rather it is with those who know the facts and have chosen to stay silent. And, that's my opinion.

*edited typos

 

[MP3Mike]

@Chaserr states his opinion, which involves due speculation. He is entitled to his opinion and speculate as he wishes. He is not, however, entitled to his own facts and he has not claimed that to be the case.

But they state their speculation as facts. Which is making up their own facts which you say they aren't entitled to...

 

[Chaserr]

@Chaserr has not said he has the facts, which make me believe he is just speculating as the rest of us. Tesla has the facts and you say you have it - neither is sharing. I wish between Tesla and you one would have talked already to put the matter to rest. Unfortunately, that has not happened and people keep proposing possible root causes.

This is true. I've repeated things I've learned - and sourced them. I've been slandered, and I've been attacked, and the person doing it was nice enough to summarize why they are frustrated and confused by their own words turned back on them.

Some of us want to know everything and aren't afraid to discuss anything that might be causing Tesla's secret reasons for putting us in danger and hopefully make sure everyone is safe. Some others are trying to stop us.

Jason needs our help to do the right thing, lets keep reminding him. Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

 

[wk057]

Is the issue that consumers do not have Whistleblower protection? I'm trying to understand how lawsuit threats to keep @wk057 quiet on a safety issue are legal.

Anyone can be sued by anyone for anything. When it comes to a billion dollar company suing an individual......... that's not an easy fight.

On the other hand you actually wrote that you knew what happened to our batteries that lead to batterygate and hopeTesla would do the right thing. But now don't want to share for some selfish reason. But that's your right and hope the best for you. I definitely looked up to you in the ev world.

I mean, yeah... I guess it's totally selfish of me as an individual, small business owner, to not want to destroy my life, the lives of my family, employees (also mostly family), etc by incurring the legal wrath of a multi-billion dollar company over releasing the information I have about Tesla's battery firmware changes and the reasoning behind them.

*sigh*

@Chaserr states his opinion, which involves due speculation. He is entitled to his opinion and speculate as he wishes. He is not, however, entitled to his own facts and he has not claimed that to be the case. The real problem is not with the people who are talking, the way I see it, rather it is with those who know the facts and have chosen to stay silent. And, that's my opinion.

This... makes little sense. Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion and speculation. But seriously, @Chaserr is not posting speculation. They're posting as if their speculation is fact.

Again, my example from a few posts ago:

Take these example sentences (WARNING: THESE ARE NOT THINGS TESLA NOR I HAVE SAID OR BELIEVE):

---

Tesla thought that batteries might explode if you drive to Canada, because the cold weather causes rapid degradation that's dangerous.

Tesla probably thought that the batteries might explode if you drive to Canada, because I believe the cold weather causes rapid degradation that could be dangerous.

---

One of these requires a citation. The other does not.

Is there really anything ambiguous about this? Not really. One is wrong and deceptive misinformation, the other is actually speculation. @Chaserr seems to prefer the latter almost exclusively.

---

Also, so this doesn't get buried: Summary of Chaserr's Deflection Tactics and Refusal to Answer a Simple Question Regarding a Citation

 

[Chaserr]

I don't believe you but if you're willing to follow through on that let me be the one to be sued. I volunteer as tribute and Tesla can't win. They're covering up crimes by their own admission, suing anyone willing to stand up and be a witness to stop those crimes is illegal.

Thanks for once again summarizing why you frustrate yourself. Do what you say and you can end this thread. You'll feel better abolut yourself and probably be able to stop blaming me for how bad you feel about the things you don't like about you.

I'll do it too, so we constantly remind you Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

One is wrong and deceptive misinformation, the other is actually speculation.

What parts of my speculation are you deceptively trying to hide with misinformation?

I DON'T prefer misinformation. I wish the person admitting to it didn't either. I do a lot of speculating, and have begged you to do some too. I wish we had the same preferences on this topic, you wouldn't be dodging everyone's pleas and complaining about the things you are doing

I've shown you everything and you still haven't shown anyone anything. Your words tell us you want to come clean. Let someone else do it if you're not allowed, under duress, or otherwise as conflicted as your words vs your actions.

 

[BigNick]

I had hoped that if Tesla wouldn't come up with a solution within a certain time frame, that the information would be leaked anonymously, similar to how a white-hat hacker might reveal a security vulnerability in Windows to MS and give them time to fix it before revealing it to the public.

However, if only one individual outside of Tesla has knowledge of the information, it's too easy to trace where it came from.

 

[Chaserr]

I'm still willing to put money on that. How does one set up a payday for them? Tesla will probably (illegally) attempt retribution for anyone that blows the whistle and we owe it to them to make their life transition as smooth and easy as possible. Is this what crowdfunding does? If someone sets it up, I will donate as much as I can afford to the cause.

 

[wk057]

I don't believe you but if you're willing to follow through on that let me be the one to be sued. I volunteer as tribute and Tesla can't win. They're covering up crimes by their own admission, suing anyone willing to stand up and be a witness to stop those crimes is illegal.

Nail on head is right here:

However, if only one individual outside of Tesla has knowledge of the information, it's too easy to trace where it came from.

Thanks for once again summarizing why you frustrate yourself. Do what you say and you can end this thread. You'll feel better abolut yourself and probably be able to stop blaming me for how bad you feel about the things you don't like about you.

I'll do it too, so we constantly remind you Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

What just happened here? This is unintelligible, and I'm once again pretty confused. What am I frustrating myself with besides banging my head against a wall trying to get you to share a single link to a source for a claim you made multiple times that Tesla said something specific that they didn't? End the thread?! What?! And how did this become a personal attack against me? Things I don't like about me? What in the heck would that have to do with anything at all? How does this relate to your false statements?!

Tesla thought it was coolant last year was when they asked if teh car was parked at an incline

Please, for the love of God, just please provide a link to where Tesla said this, or outright state this is your own speculation. That's it. That's all that is needed here.

What parts of my speculation are you deceptively trying to hide with misinformation?

Now I'm convinced you're completely trolling. There's just no way any reasonable person somehow would be able to take me giving clear English language example sentences defined as "statement" and "speculation", respectively, and somehow twisting that into me trying to hide something with misinformation... ???????????? Is this the Twilight Zone?

---

Also, so this doesn't get buried: Summary of Chaserr's Deflection Tactics and Refusal to Answer a Simple Question Regarding a Citation (although I guess I need an updated version with all of the recent nonsense posts also)

 

[Chaserr]

They're posting as if their speculation is fact.

Stop spreading misinformation. I have used the word hypothesis enough times for you to not make that mistake accidentally.

You need another reminder

 

[Chaserr]

What just happened here? This is unintelligible, and I'm once again pretty confused.

I speak several languages and you did mentioned a language barrier earlier - was that just you doing more of the things you like to complain about yourself when you slander your problems onto others, or do you have another preferred language? Maybe we can meet in the middle.

In simpler English,

You give me stuff I take trouble

 

[wk057]

Stop spreading misinformation. I have used the word hypothesis enough times for you to not make that mistake accidentally.

So what you're saying is I somehow accidentally missed the word "hypothesis" in this post here, for example: Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
Or this one: Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no qualifiers such as "hypothesis" in either one of those posts. These are statements as if they are fact. And false statements that have no citation.

I speak several languages and you did mentioned your language barrier earlier. Which language is prefereble? Maybe we can meet in the middle.

In simpler English,

You give me stuff you not put name on it

Cool! I'm not sure what that last part is about, but English is good by me.

Looks like you edited this while I posted my reply... to accuse me of a crime? I'm still confused:

I speak several languages and you did mentioned a language barrier earlier - was that just you doing more of the things you like to complain about yourself when you slander your problems onto others, or do you have another preferred language? Maybe we can meet in the middle.

Seems we'll get no where with this.

 

[alcibiades]

Anyone can be sued by anyone for anything.

That's not actually true.

I suppose I just don't understand both how your discovery can be a safety issue and and that you are willing to stay quiet about it. Maybe you aren't certain it is a safety issue. But the best way to diminish FUD is with facts. Isn't it?

 

[thesnooch]

Now I'm just genuinely confused. Stop screwing around. (See, and people wonder why I stopped coming to this forum?)

Everyone wins. (Edit: Well, except me. I'll probably get sued. But still, since the source in question about the incline question doesn't exist and everyone knows it at this point, this is a non-issue.)

If this doesn't get the source link, it doesn't exist, period. It's put up or shut up time.

Lot to unpack here, but this is likely going to have to be my last post on this topic as I can't continue to waste time battling obvious FUDsters like @Chaserr, provide useful information, and cover my own a** at the same time.

I'm sorry if that's insufficient for folks, but that's where I have to be on it. For the record, Tesla has not threatened anything. I'm choosing to handle this as I have based on advice I've acquired on my own.

I'm... just at a loss for words. Instead of providing useful information (you know, the link to your source for the quote from Tesla) you've instead lowered yourself to grade-school mocking. lol. How is that helpful in any way whatsoever? How does this strengthen your case?! I DONT GET IT. I DONT UNDERSTAND. I'm genuinely confused. Like, seriously. Is @Chaserr a bot or something? I really don't get it.

 

[wk057]

That's not actually true.

I suppose I just don't understand both how your discovery can be a safety issue and and that you are willing to stay quiet about it. Maybe you aren't certain it is a safety issue. But the best way to diminish FUD is with facts. Isn't it?

Did I ever say it was definitely a safety issue? Pretty sure I specifically avoided doing so, actually.

 

[thesnooch]

@wk057 There are whistleblower protections in place for a reason. Skimmed through the last few pages and I think what you said is true. Time to "put up or shut up" - apparently you have knowledge about what exactly happened here but are not willing to speak about it? Cause you'll get sued? Or?

Anyways maybe it's obvious or maybe I'm the only one who feels this way but it sure sounds like @wk057's refusal to provide any useful information is due to NDA or being on Tesla payroll.

Just my two cents. Commence the bot attacks and cue-in the disagrees from the other Tesla W2's or 1099-MISC's (tax season lolz).

 

[Battpower]

The reason I follow this and some other similar threads is not because at this time I am directly effected by the primary points being discussed. My interest is in Tesla as the manufacturer of the car I drive, possible issues that might effect me one day, and most importantly how Tesla deals both with technical and potential safety issues as well as communication.

As an engineer I like to try and understand stuff and being part of this community can facilitate that. Many people who post here have a pretty generic and owner-centric relationship with their cars and Tesla while others (in the minority) appear to have a more 'official' or 'elevated' status based on experience, contacts, expertise or whatever. Contributions from all pov's have led me to reflect differently based on contributions.

Is there anything that can get the discussion refocused on the real issues.

I can understand @wk057 's situation completely but unfortunately that would appear to somewhat limit his ability to contribute further.

I also think with such a sensitive topic, it pays to be very careful that what you type correctly conveys your meaning.

I really would like to know what the story is with batterygate and chargegate though, and it really irks me that Tesla won't just come clean... about whatever it was behind their actions.

 

[gmo43]

Anyone can be sued by anyone for anything. When it comes to a billion dollar company suing an individual......... that's not an easy fight.



I mean, yeah... I guess it's totally selfish of me as an individual, small business owner, to not want to destroy my life, the lives of my family, employees (also mostly family), etc by incurring the legal wrath of a multi-billion dollar company over releasing the information I have about Tesla's battery firmware changes and the reasoning behind them.

*sigh*


Totally understandable, Profits vs life and property. Hope you and your family

Nail on head is right here:





What just happened here? This is unintelligible, and I'm once again pretty confused. What am I frustrating myself with besides banging my head against a wall trying to get you to share a single link to a source for a claim you made multiple times that Tesla said something specific that they didn't? End the thread?! What?! And how did this become a personal attack against me? Things I don't like about me? What in the heck would that have to do with anything at all? How does this relate to your false statements?!



Please, for the love of God, just please provide a link to where Tesla said this, or outright state this is your own speculation. That's it. That's all that is needed here.



Now I'm convinced you're completely trolling. There's just no way any reasonable person somehow would be able to take me giving clear English language example sentences defined as "statement" and "speculation", respectively, and somehow twisting that into me trying to hide something with misinformation... ???????????? Is this the Twilight Zone?

---

Also, so this doesn't get buried: Summary of Chaserr's Deflection Tactics and Refusal to Answer a Simple Question Regarding a Citation (although I guess I need an updated version with all of the recent nonsense posts also)

What if you were to contact the class action lawyer and help. Wouldn't that protect you and actually get you reperation or immunity from Tesla. You might even be able to retire with such funding. Obviously in a perfect scenario.

Or contact the nthsa and let them know you want immunity too.

Just ideas. Die a hero.

 

[thesnooch]

Since my last post, I've gathered quite a bit of electronic and physical data on this issue. At this point, I'm reasonably certain of the details at this point, but I don't think going into detail here is going to help anything at this moment. I'd also like to gather additional physical datapoints, and give Tesla some room on this for now. So, apologies for being a little vague here for now.

I have a dialog going with two different groups at Tesla on this issue at the moment. (Admittedly, seems like neither group knows the other is communicating with me, but that's Tesla's excellent internal communication for you. /s) Both seem to be productive, however, so I'm going to continue them in the hopes of a solution.

Neither contact will admit to anything bad, obviously. But a few takeaways:

• I'm pretty convinced that the people who made this "fix" were unaware there was going to be any significant impact to anyone's usable range.
  • Specifically, my understanding is that the change was a proactive measure to detect a very uncommon long-term failure mode of the battery. The conditions they were testing for didn't appear to exist in any battery in the fleet, but adding a check and mitigation was to be a preventative safety measure.
• The new test/fix they added seems to have inadvertently activated based on another completely separate set of triggers in some batteries.
• The people I've spoken to so far seemed genuinely unaware of this particular trigger being the trip up here, and are looking into it in more detail.
• Detecting this is a good thing, but the "fix" applied is not the best for what's actually the trigger here.

Again, sorry to be vague. Suffice it to say the details won't really help anyone right now anyway.

I'm also hesitant to say it, since, again, I don't want to inflate this issue beyond where it already is and cause further speculation, but: If you have a car with an 85-type pack (85 or 70) then you should probably update if you either supercharge a lot, charge to 100% often, or both.

No, I'm not saying your car is going to explode or otherwise have other issues if you don't update, so don't take it like that, but I do believe that what is being detected is an issue that will eventually need to be addressed one way or another, whether or not there is a safety issue involved, and if you are in that group it'd be better to know than not know.

Again, I want to give Tesla a good faith opportunity to work this all out before I start throwing things out their publicly. Right now, I do believe this particular situation isn't something they were originally aware of and just kind of stumbled across once this update hit the masses. They have been working to determine a reason for. I'm pretty sure my input is pushing that along in the right direction.

We're all painfully aware that Tesla has serious internal and public communication issues. Since the changes in the updates don't appear to have been intended to impact anyone at all at this point, they definitely did not seem to be prepared for reports of lost range and such, hence the canned responses to the same. Hopefully they'll better address this soon.

As most here are aware, I give Tesla a lot of grief on things when they, well, screw people over and deserve to be called out on their shenanigans. At this point, I don't believe there was any bad intention, so unless that changes, let's cut them a little slack for now and give them a chance to get things right.

And, if they don't, I think there is a lot of pressure that affected owners can put on them one way or another.

This is my understanding of the situation from their perspective. Again, they've obviously not being super forthcoming, but this is what I've put together from conversations with both groups.

Basically they went looking for X and found Z instead. X is pretty bad, but doesn't seem to have happened anywhere. Detecting X is definitely a good thing. Z is not good, but not as bad as X. The process of looking for X's ended up finding a bunch of Z's as well. Z was not being looked for and wasn't known. Detecting Z is still a good thing. The people with a rapid range loss have condition Z.

Hopefully that's less ambiguous, and also still ambiguous.

 

[thesnooch]

Read these two posts from resident Tesla expert @wk057. What's X? What's Z? If you can't answer by EOD then pls gtfo.