There are many different types in this thread. The optimist, the theorist, the realist and the apologist. I might be missing some and some are a combination. The apologist will blame the realist for the issues they have. The apologist may be part theorist and provide a theory to support their position. As an observer it appears the apologist/theorist hybrid's position is the you are doing it wrong. Don't drive the car with any more passion then you could a Prius despite Tesla bragged about the performance. Don't charge it quickly at a supercharger despite Tesla bragged about the charging network and speed. If you have any complaint about the car after 4 years that you paid roughly $80k plus for just go away because you may have caused the issue by using the car the way Tesla bragged about. Your experience and expectations are not the same as theirs therefore it's your fault and you should have known better.
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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
- Thread starter Dutchmeeuw
- Start date
So well stated. The apologist/theorist hybrid's posts serve one notable consistent purpose though. They are also hilariously funny.
cpa
Active Member
Here is a question for all you intelligent folks:
When my range was reduced shockingly, it was December. I went from ~254 to ~234. It stayed pretty much at 234 until June when I now have ~242.
I have received a couple of updates during this period.
Our weather is now consistently 98-107 during the days and 65-80 by dawn. The garage is a balmy 90 most of the time.
Is this increase due to the weather; in other words, will the range drop once more around Thanksgiving?
It just seems like so much with this artificial cell capping is temperature dependent.
When my range was reduced shockingly, it was December. I went from ~254 to ~234. It stayed pretty much at 234 until June when I now have ~242.
I have received a couple of updates during this period.
Our weather is now consistently 98-107 during the days and 65-80 by dawn. The garage is a balmy 90 most of the time.
Is this increase due to the weather; in other words, will the range drop once more around Thanksgiving?
It just seems like so much with this artificial cell capping is temperature dependent.
Range (as displayed on Tesla) doesn't change based on weather since it is purely a function of EPA rating (or Ideal fantasies) multiplied by total capacity available, the only way to change it is to change the capacity itself or the EPA rated / Ideal fantasy watt hour rating. Will Tesla change it once again this winter? Your guess is as good as anyone else's.
Temperatures play a large role. Supercharging (hot) without preheating (cold) is, from what I have been reading, a very dangerous combination. When Tesla introduced preheating, they held it back from older cars but I think they recently realized for safety ours should have had it years earlier and withholding it was a mistake. Managing temperature variations that cause plating etc is what they failed to do early on that seems to be the reason they're now trying to avoid warranty repairing batteries damaged by plating, stripping, and dendrites. Newer cars may run into the same problem, but if you follow the rabbit hole from that link I recently posted thermal management to manipulate plating and stripping with long term functionality is possible. They didn't know our batteries were plating up and letting dendrites form, so this is good for the future without a permanent batterygate or the other gates, they just need to fix the damaged batteries and send recall notifications so everyone at risk is informed and gets their car fixed. This was a tough lesson for Tesla, but I hope they learned the right lessons and not just the wrong ones we have been seeing but not hearing anything about over the last year.
Temperatures play a large role. Supercharging (hot) without preheating (cold) is, from what I have been reading, a very dangerous combination. When Tesla introduced preheating, they held it back from older cars but I think they recently realized for safety ours should have had it years earlier and withholding it was a mistake. Managing temperature variations that cause plating etc is what they failed to do early on that seems to be the reason they're now trying to avoid warranty repairing batteries damaged by plating, stripping, and dendrites. Newer cars may run into the same problem, but if you follow the rabbit hole from that link I recently posted thermal management to manipulate plating and stripping with long term functionality is possible. They didn't know our batteries were plating up and letting dendrites form, so this is good for the future without a permanent batterygate or the other gates, they just need to fix the damaged batteries and send recall notifications so everyone at risk is informed and gets their car fixed. This was a tough lesson for Tesla, but I hope they learned the right lessons and not just the wrong ones we have been seeing but not hearing anything about over the last year.
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The temperature definitely affect your consumption (wh/miles), higher in winter, lower in summer.
Any natural change in your total range (as it reads @100%) would be through expected range reduction due to the gradual and natural degradation of your pack as it ages.
Your total range (as it reads @100%) should not increase beyond a typical few miles, here and there which happens due to various factors, unless someone is Mickey Mousing with your car's battery
Could you please provide some SMT scans in order to estimate the total draining energy caused by the system in this 2,5hrs.? Three scans (beginning, mid, end) would be sufficient.
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Capping voltage is only one part and it certainly can lead to a change in useable capacity. But the other factor is the ability of cells to absorb and release energy - hence pre-heating for optimal fast charging, increased regen in cold and ludicrous mode.
So in hot conditions, cells function better with lower internal resistance. This actually allows the battery to work better / store more energy / more even energy distribution throughout cells.
Edit: obviously you can have too much heat with Lithium batteries, so keeping in an appropriate temperature envelope for the demands being made of the battery is what the thermal management is about.
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@Battpower All true but none of that shows up on the Range display. Range is just a number derived from Capacity and a watt hours per mile constant that for EPA can never be changed reduced without a retest and some federal paperwork. Whether you have original 85kW regen from 2012 or no regen, the range displayed at 50kwh capacity is always the same on every Tesla of teh same configuration in all weather. They can't change it unless they change one of those two - capacity or watt hours rated.
We know they are messing around with volts to adjust capacity. We want to know why, and when that answer will be fixed.
We know they are messing around with volts to adjust capacity. We want to know why, and when that answer will be fixed.
I'm not sure if this comment is relevant to this:
If you set charging to stop at 80%, it is very unlikely that any of your bricks will have reached Vmax so charging will have continued to your set limit. If you charge a warm battery slowly, there is most chance that the charge will be shared evenly and your battery will be able to deliver most of that energy if discharged gently.
If you (try to) charge to 100% but have a high resistance brick (may be worse at low temps?) a particular car may be stopped from charging because that one weak brick reaches Vmax before it 'should', effectively denying most bricks the chance to finish absorbing charge.
Not sure if loggers can take such conditions into account when extrapolating data points or if they assume charging will continue to 100% based on stored energy ignoring early cutoff due to Vmax being reached by one brick.
If you set charging to stop at 80%, it is very unlikely that any of your bricks will have reached Vmax so charging will have continued to your set limit. If you charge a warm battery slowly, there is most chance that the charge will be shared evenly and your battery will be able to deliver most of that energy if discharged gently.
If you (try to) charge to 100% but have a high resistance brick (may be worse at low temps?) a particular car may be stopped from charging because that one weak brick reaches Vmax before it 'should', effectively denying most bricks the chance to finish absorbing charge.
Not sure if loggers can take such conditions into account when extrapolating data points or if they assume charging will continue to 100% based on stored energy ignoring early cutoff due to Vmax being reached by one brick.
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I think your recent links and other posts here actually demonstrate the capping of voltage is to control what's going on inside cells. Coincidentally it effects capacity.
Not sure that distinction has any practical significance.
Yes. Your whr/m could change with temperature based on battery internal resistance being lower without having to apply additional heating.
I forget if heater energy (and cooling for that matter) is included whr/m calculation.
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Your max range changes were in lockstep with how my S85 has changed from all the software updates throughout the last 2 years. I'm in a very mild area of coastal southern California where our weather averages 70 degrees. The garage will hit 90 on a summer day and can hit 40 degrees on a cold winter's morning. Since my climate is a lot more mild than yours yet the change in range has been similar, I would be inclined to say the change in range has more to do with the software updates and not temperature.
Brass Guy
Active Member
Yes, the battery heater energy is counted on the wh/m display while driving.
Brass Guy
Active Member
On a long drive, probably not a lot. But on short drives in the winter, it adds up. This is why I use range mode in the winter; after I've pre-heated some.
Just to clarify how we got here, @Chaserr was referring to the wh/m constant that is used to display your available range. @Battpower quoted him but altered the subject to energy use.
No it's not! Neither is battery cooling. Neither is vampire drain and energy used while not moving.
Hard to verify now in warmer weather but when colder you can loose 2-3KWH warming up the battery while driving and that's not being computed in the wh/mi display (or more detectable in the KWH used).
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Brass Guy
Active Member
I'm certain that it does. When it's cold enough, below freezing for example, with the car on but not moving and climate off, my display will show the ~6 kw use in my display; and adds about 200 wh/m to my energy use when I drive. When I change to range mode, the display changes to negligible energy use after about 3 seconds.
I suppose it's possible this changed with the "-gate" updates, I'm still on v8. I doubt it though.
I am not sure if it changed from v8 but a better way to check is that your KWH used on a given trip does not reflect the typical 3kwh it takes to warm up battery. As an example on a very cold day I did 5 short trips (each requiring battery warm up) over a two day period(100 to zero percent altogether) and my battery indicated I used 50kwh instead of the 65 I can get during warm days for the same trips.
Not sure if you could replicate this with battery cooling on hot days (I never hear my battery cooling on mine even on 95F day)
Why is Tesla so afraid to show the real KWH used by the car unlike other cars like the Bolt for example? If they did that then it'd be obvious what the battery capacity is!
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