Sudden Unexpected Acceleration today

[Belt007]

[Mongo said "/Opposite slope pedal sensors are the industry standard ]

If opposite slope pedal sensors are industry standard, then why does Toyota use two sensors with rising slopes in their Camry? Also, notice that they are using the same +5V supply and the same ground for both sensors. This is standard practice in the industry fro my own experience.

 

[Belt007]

[EinSV said "][/Odd that you would post a bunch of papers with your theories on the internet but not submit a single paper for peer review. And yes I've read your explanation for that but if you truly wanted your theories to be tested by the scientific community there is no substitute for publishing in a peer reviewed journal where they would be subject to scrutiny by other scientists. That's assuming your analysis passed peer review and met standards for publication, of course."]

And if you truly wanted to discuss the pros and cons of sudden unintended acceleration, you wouldn't require that someone first publish their complete explanation in a peer reviewed journal before you commented on their paper. But if you really want my answer to your question, please read the following document: "Dr. Ronald A. Belt: Why I Publish Here".found with my paper.

 

[EinSV]

And if you truly wanted to discuss the pros and cons of sudden unintended acceleration, you wouldn't require that someone first publish their complete explanation in a peer reviewed journal before you commented on their paper. But if you really want my answer to your question, please read the following document: "Dr. Ronald A. Belt: Why I Publish Here".found with my paper.

I have read your answer, but you have been posting papers for six years on the internet regarding supposedly undiscovered causes of unintended acceleration (not limited to Tesla). If you wanted your theories to be vetted by the scientific community you could have published at least one paper in a peer reviewed publication -- if it could make it through peer review.

 

[tpatana]

Dr. Belt. Dentist perhaps?

 

[mongo]

[Mongo said "/Opposite slope pedal sensors are the industry standard ]

If opposite slope pedal sensors are industry standard, then why does Toyota use two sensors with rising slopes in their Camry? Also, notice that they are using the same +5V supply and the same ground for both sensors. This is standard practice in the industry fro my own experience.
View attachment 302857

1. That is a throttle body (engine intake airflow) position sensor. Not an accelerator (pedal) sensor.
   
2. It still uses dual slopes/ ranges for rationality checks. If you offset the values, they will fail. For every X command position, there is only one set of Y inputs.
   
3. If the sensor inputs do not fit the lines, they will be rejected. For each input value, there is only one position possible , if they resolve to different positions, a fault is thrown.
4. It shows monitoring of the supply voltage, thus providing FS reference.

Soneone who has torn down Teslas and looked at the pedal interface interface in SW and HW X owner claims unintended acceleration caused accident

The vehicle logs the outputs of both hall effect sensors in the accelerator pedal independently. They both must match their respective output curves during a go-pedal press in order for the car to respond to a request for acceleration. If anything is off, the car doesn't move. If one sensor goes out, the car will operate in limp mode with drastically reduced torque.

Suffice it to say, there quite literally is no way for a Tesla Model S/X/3 to do what people claim without the driver pressing the accelerator pedal.

 

[derekmw]

That's all pretty numbers and all - but still doesn't change the fact (or ignores it?) that brakes always stop the car regardless of how hard the accelerator pedal is pressed.
In all Tesla's the brake system is independent and not regenerative so will always work.
Therefore - if you are pressing the brake, the car will stop. If you can't stop the car, you are NOT pressing the brake pedal - simple.

Twiglett, let's discuss the role of braking in sudden acceleration incidents after we decide if it's possible that the accelerator pedal sensor outputs might be causing the problem.

@Belt007, why? The entire premise of THIS thread's original post was that the brake pedal was pressed, but the car accelerated. Regardless of what the title states, the premise around this discussion was that the wife was pressing the brake pedal down but car accelerated instead. So we can argue all these supposed theories of whether it's possible to get these edge case scenarios, but as @Twiglett mentioned, it's all mute point if in this case, the wife was pressing down on the brake pedal.

 

[Belt007]

[derekmw wrote: ][/@Belt007, why? The entire premise of THIS thread's original post was that the brake pedal was pressed, but the car accelerated. Regardless of what the title states, the premise around this discussion was that the wife was pressing the brake pedal down but car accelerated instead. So we can argue all these supposed theories of whether it's possible to get these edge case scenarios, but as @Twiglett mentioned, it's all mute point if in this case, the wife was pressing down on the brake pedal.]

Enclosed is a paper I have written two years ago in response your question. By posting it here, I reserve the right to post it elsewhere at a location of my own choosing.

 

[AWDtsla]

[derekmw wrote: ][/@Belt007, why? The entire premise of THIS thread's original post was that the brake pedal was pressed, but the car accelerated. Regardless of what the title states, the premise around this discussion was that the wife was pressing the brake pedal down but car accelerated instead. So we can argue all these supposed theories of whether it's possible to get these edge case scenarios, but as @Twiglett mentioned, it's all mute point if in this case, the wife was pressing down on the brake pedal.]

Enclosed is a paper I have written two years ago in response your question. By posting it here, I reserve the right to post it elsewhere at a location of my own choosing.

Do you understand how you use ludicrous launch mode? You hold the car in place with the brake pedal, while going to 100% starting torque with the other pedal. Owners do this all the time. RWD Model 3 is absolutely tame in comparison to ludicrous mode.

Not only this, but I've road tuned ECU's for years. You can easily decelerate an engine producing 400+HP with OEM brakes. Sometimes the only way to get a good data log at the same RPM row but up the load axis is to go to 100% throttle while keeping the car from accelerating. It's actually a difficult balancing act to keep the car from DECELERATING in this case. At 400+HP output.

The only way to get it to fail is to timidly ride brakes like a bumbling idiot so you slowly heat up the discs while not slowing down to the point where the outgassing from the pads no longer lets you apply braking force. The brake discs will be glowing red hot at this point.

 

[derekmw]

[derekmw wrote: ][/@Belt007, why? The entire premise of THIS thread's original post was that the brake pedal was pressed, but the car accelerated. Regardless of what the title states, the premise around this discussion was that the wife was pressing the brake pedal down but car accelerated instead. So we can argue all these supposed theories of whether it's possible to get these edge case scenarios, but as @Twiglett mentioned, it's all mute point if in this case, the wife was pressing down on the brake pedal.]

Enclosed is a paper I have written two years ago in response your question. By posting it here, I reserve the right to post it elsewhere at a location of my own choosing.

I'm not sure where the "I reserve right right" comes from. I never said you can't post here. I asked why you are posting in this thread.

And regarding your paper, I still do not see the relevance. The discussion here was about how while applying the brakes, the car continued to accelerate. Your paper talks about the inability to slow the car down enough, given the average force a person can apply while fighting the engine force. Regardless of how much force a person was able to apply, if they were actually pressing down fully on the brake pedal, the car will still decelerate, not accelerate.

Are you saying in addition to this, you believe the car's power brakes also failed? If so, based on what? The fact that both accelerator input occurring, AND power brakes failing together can theoretically cause this doesn't give any evidence that it has happened.

 

[mongo]

Do you understand how you use ludicrous launch mode? You hold the car in place with the brake pedal, while going to 100% starting torque with the other pedal. Owners do this all the time. RWD Model 3 is absolutely tame in comparison to ludicrous mode.

I don't think it is 100% torque. Rather, the DU preloads the driveshafts and gears to remove all slop, then waits for the brake signal to go away before engage full power.

 

[AWDtsla]

I don't think it is 100% torque. Rather, the DU preloads the driveshafts and gears to remove all slop, then waits for the brake signal to go away before engage full power.

It's dumping ~35kW into the motors at 0 RPM. It's not just removing slop, it's pushing very hard.

 

[McRat]

[Mongo said "/Opposite slope pedal sensors are the industry standard ]

If opposite slope pedal sensors are industry standard, then why does Toyota use two sensors with rising slopes in their Camry? Also, notice that they are using the same +5V supply and the same ground for both sensors. This is standard practice in the industry fro my own experience.
...

This is a GM LS6 engine. 3 pedal sensors, 2 throttle body sensors. One of the Pedal sensors is mapped 5-0vdc with both 5 and 0 being faults like the other sensors. I'm too lazy to pull the full diagram.

 

[AWDtsla]

[derekmw wrote: ][/@Belt007, why? The entire premise of THIS thread's original post was that the brake pedal was pressed, but the car accelerated. Regardless of what the title states, the premise around this discussion was that the wife was pressing the brake pedal down but car accelerated instead. So we can argue all these supposed theories of whether it's possible to get these edge case scenarios, but as @Twiglett mentioned, it's all mute point if in this case, the wife was pressing down on the brake pedal.]

Enclosed is a paper I have written two years ago in response your question. By posting it here, I reserve the right to post it elsewhere at a location of my own choosing.

Furthermore, this paper refers to the problem of vacuum assisted brake booster running out of vacuum (thereby reducing unassisted brake force) in a case where the throttle valve won't close on your ICE. OK. Tesla does not have an ICE, it does not have a throttle valve, it does not have vacuum, it does not have a vacuum assisted brake booster.

Totally irrelevant.

 

[mongo]

It's dumping ~35kW into the motors at 0 RPM. It's not just removing slop, it's pushing very hard.

Yah, It is loading everything up tight, but 35kW is only 100 Amps @ 350V. Max is 1,000A - 1,500A

 

[Icer]

@Belt007it's all mute point if in this case, the wife was pressing down on the brake pedal.

moot

Obvious explanation
She did not press down on the brake pedal.

Unless the brakes fail, there is no case
in which stepping on the brakes
does not stop the car.

Even with a foot on the accelerator.

Go ahead, get in your car,
step on the brake with your left
and the accelerator with your right foot.

Car will not move.
A rear driver with enough oomph
will burn the tires down to the wheels,
sound and fury, acrid black smoke.

But the car will not move.

Time to mute this fallacy.
OP's problem is she thinks that happened.
This has been found to be the case, from the first
Audi Fake story, a lie created with the help of CBS' 60 Minutes.
More Fraud than fake, that one.

It may or may not be related to personality issues in this case.
She may be lying, and then manipulating, suggesting
"you don't believe me, you don't trust me, you have a problem", etc.

But more importantly, she may genuinely
believe she was stepping on the brake.
This is what was found in studying all of these cases.

Just plain human error. Fear, emotion clouds our thinking in critical moments, just in day to day life with
]nothing crazy happening.

So don;t be too hard on the honest ones, who made an honest and very human error.
Split second decision making under stress is what separates
the special forces elite warrior from a kid working at the 7-11.
Good cop, bad cop.
Tom Brady vs, well,
just about everyone else.

Be careful out there people, drive responsibly.

 

[Butane]

Belt007, besides the fact that your paper is totally irrelevant for the reasons AWDtsla posted, do you really need to keep linking us to your fancy pdfs? I refrain from downloading random PDFs as a basic security measure. You should really take a stab at this new-fangled HTML thing for presentng information. I get the point that you've already "thought" through this, but if you can't be arsed to copy-paste from your white paper into this forum for us to read, then why bother participating?

 

[SageBrush]

but if you can't be arsed to copy-paste from your white paper into this forum for us to read, then why bother participating?

He is advertising.

TMC should collect fees and then allow him access to the vendors section

 

[Runt8]

He is advertising.

TMC should collect fees and then allow him access to the vendors section

Beware retired engineers with too much time...

 

[AWDtsla]

Yah, It is loading everything up tight, but 35kW is only 100 Amps @ 350V. Max is 1,000A - 1,500A

You can't output 1500A at 0 RPM unless you're trying to turn your car into smoke. Without considering real motor efficiency, torque rises to infinity as RPM approaches 0, for any given input current. Of course in the case of a stalled motor real motor efficiency is 0%, so there's some interesting calculus here.

Calculations | Simple Electric Motors


edit - I should add, it's apparent from actually doing launches that it is full torque. Total power output grows linearly with speed from launch, it does not suddenly jump up.

 

[mongo]

You can't output 1500A at 0 RPM unless you're trying to turn your car into smoke. Without considering real motor efficiency, torque rises to infinity as RPM approaches 0, for any given input current. Of course in the case of a stalled motor real motor efficiency is 0%, so there's some interesting calculus here.

Calculations | Simple Electric Motors

You are correct. For a 1G launch of a 5,000 pound car, it needs to put in 22.2 kN , or 22 kW, so the torque is maxed out pre-launch.
Thanks for the correction!

EDIT: I did a wrong conversion there. 1kW = 1kN m/s not 1kN... But still, it can't pull max power at a standstill...