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Wiki Super Heavy/Starship - General Development Discussion

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For the SpaceX Mars (or moon) mission architecture to work, Starship has to have a VERY efficient stage fraction = VERY lightweight, thin-walled tanks/fuselage. I expect that’s why we’re seeing so many pressure failures, weld splits, etc. That's the number one “trick” that the SpaceX engineers have to master and what they are likely concentrating on.

If they can’t solve that, Superheavy/Starship may still be a great reusable TSTO, but Elon's Moon/Mars Architecture will need to be reworked.
 
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For the SpaceX Mars (or moon) mission architecture to work, Starship has to have a VERY efficient stage fraction = VERY lightweight, thin-walled tanks/fuselage. I expect that’s why we’re seeing so many pressure failures, weld splits, etc. That's the number one “trick” that the SpaceX engineers have to master and what they are likely concentrating on.

If they can’t solve that, Superheavy/Starship may still be a great reusable TSTO, but Elon's Moon/Mars Architecture will need to be reworked.
Or high ISP engines and a large rocket. The bigger the system, the lower the surface (dead weight) to volume (fuel and payload) ratio.
 
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Very true ... but the Shuttle suffered two LoC accidents (14 people). Neither one would have been LoC had NASA used a simple capsule design.
No believable capsule design would have saved Columbia's crew. Not one that didn't make the Shuttle too big and heavy to complete its missions, anyway.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Did you mean a capsule instead of the shuttle?

The F-111 didn't have ejection seats. Instead the entire cockpit would separate from the rest of the plane and descend with parachutes. That was what I thought you were saying.
 
No believable capsule design would have saved Columbia's crew. Not one that didn't make the Shuttle too big and heavy to complete its missions, anyway.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Did you mean a capsule instead of the shuttle?

The F-111 didn't have ejection seats. Instead the entire cockpit would separate from the rest of the plane and descend with parachutes. That was what I thought you were saying.
Yes, I meant capsule instead of Shuttle.
 
"Elon Musk, leaving the KSC press site just now, said of yesterday's Starship test in Boca Chica Texas: "Unfortunately what we thought was going to be a minor test of a quick disconnect ended up being a big problem," referring to the explosion."

Joey Roulette on Twitter
jr_tw_ss.jpg
 
Artemis? I don't even follow the government plans anymore because they'll change again (and never be completed). Might as well read SciFi novels in PowerPoint format.


Not control surfaces, it's returning the large mass to Earth ... which requires a larger booster, larger heat shields, large control surfaces, many failure points, etc, etc. You *really* think that a Mars-capable Starship will be a minor variant of a cargo or even Moon-capable Starship??? I guess we'll see.


That was a joke/exaggeration (note the '!').


Do I even need to criticize SLS??? It's a ridiculous waste of taxpayer money and violates several of the lessons learned from STS: no crew with payload (i.e. no manrating of heavy lift), no large solids, etc. SLS will fly once or twice then be quietly canned. There won't be a Block II. I'd say, "give that money to SpaceX", but then that risks SX getting fat and lazy rather than staying lean and mean. I think, overall, the best approach is for NASA to eventually buy services from commercial providers (e.g. "we need you to transport seven people to XYZ and back") and not design launchers.


It'll never be fiscally viable for most of the population.


Yes, I do think we/they need landers specifically designed for their environment. Sending a large mass down and back up requires huge amounts of propellant ... which feeds back into needing a much larger launcher from Earth and numerous refueling stops in LEO, etc. Well, we're right back to the idea of a depot in LEO. And if we're going to blow that much propellant anyway, why not make a spacecraft that propulsively brakes back into LEO to dock with the depot (the crew can reenter in a simple capsule) and reuse it. It never lands anywhere, it simply goes from one orbit to another.

Just started thinking about this variant again. Given the goal of taking cargo and crew from lunar orbit down to the moon and back managed by Super Dracos, will it need Raptors and the large fuel tanks? Could Starship Heavy launch a very stripped down Starship to LEO? How would it get to the moon? Seems a waste to have tanks feeding Raptors that would only be used once or twice. The cargo space could be tremendous and without those tanks and engines, an external lift would not be needed to unload and load the cargo.
 
Just started thinking about this variant again. Given the goal of taking cargo and crew from lunar orbit down to the moon and back managed by Super Dracos, will it need Raptors and the large fuel tanks? Could Starship Heavy launch a very stripped down Starship to LEO? How would it get to the moon? Seems a waste to have tanks feeding Raptors that would only be used once or twice. The cargo space could be tremendous and without those tanks and engines, an external lift would not be needed to unload and load the cargo.
Note that I'm not a rocket scientist ... but I'll go from my understanding.

Your entire design depends on how much mass is returning to wherever (to lunar orbit, the Earth's surface, etc.). The whole stack is linked together. Each kg returning to the Earth's surface is magnified exponentially back to the launch vehicle. That's why minimizing returned mass is so important. For example, the Apollo CM was the only part returning to the Earth's surface and its mass was around 5 mT. The Saturn V mass at launch was a whopping 2970 mT, with around 90% of that propellant.

Apollo command and service module - Wikipedia
Saturn V - Wikipedia

Going from low lunar orbit (LLO) to the Moon's surface and back is easier but still costly. The Apollo Lunar Module ascent element was 2.2 kg dry while the entire stack in LLO (ascent + descent elements) was around 15 mT. Two thirds of that mass was propellant.

Apollo Lunar Module - Wikipedia

That gives you an idea of what it takes to go back and forth from LLO to the Lunar surface. If you're returning a bunch of dry mass to LLO, you need to start with a huge amount of prop in LLO.

SS is even worse because it's dragging all that mass from LEO to the lunar surface and back. That requires a *huge* amount of prop in LEO. I've read where it'll take a dozen refueling flights to LEO for a minimal lunar surface mission with SS.
 
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T These are testing prototypes. They are intentionally being tested to destruction. This is how the company learns.

This point can't be stressed enough as a major difference between SpaceX and legacy rocket MFGs.

Traditionally rockets are so expensive and so low volume that there's some engine testing, a few component level failure tests, and then maybe one non-flight full-up-ish structural test model. Its not like there's no acceptance testing with the legacy folks, its that they design their stuff to analytically pass the acceptance tests pretty comfortably. A big reason that's the approach is because the major financier for those projects (The Man) is hyper conservative, and any anomalies result in significant schedule and cost impact.

Contrast with the SpaceX iterative process that relies heavily on additional empirical data--importantly, including anomalies--to shave traditional safety margins and ultimately end up with a more efficient vehicle. SpaceX not having to justify [most of] their spending plays a big part in there as well, as does their general disregard for traditional ROI.

Basically, "Smarter, not harder". (Not to imply SpaceX is inherently smarter than B, LM, Ariane, etc.)
 
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Just started thinking about this variant again. Given the goal of taking cargo and crew from lunar orbit down to the moon and back managed by Super Dracos, will it need Raptors and the large fuel tanks? Could Starship Heavy launch a very stripped down Starship to LEO? How would it get to the moon? Seems a waste to have tanks feeding Raptors that would only be used once or twice. The cargo space could be tremendous and without those tanks and engines, an external lift would not be needed to unload and load the cargo.
I noticed that in my earlier reply, I never answered your questions! So, with all the caveats, here goes.

1. Super Draco isn't suitable for landings because it wasn't designed for that purpose. It has a terrible Isp compared to, say, the Apollo descent stage engine:

Apollo Lunar Module - Wikipedia

You would want something similar but designed for in-space usage (add a large nozzle).

2. SH could launch a stripped down SS to LEO but it doesn't really help. You'd still need large propellant tanks and a bunch of Raptors to go from LEO to LLO. You'd still need a dozen tanker flights to LEO to fill the tanks. However, once in LLO, you'd only need a small lander and small engines to go down to the surface and back. A large, massive stripped down SS would need a bunch of propellant in LLO to do surface operations -- and that propellant would need to come from the Earth's surface. So we're back to needing a bunch of tanker flights to fill a tanker SS to go from LEO to LLO to refuel the stripped SS.

IMHO, SpaceX is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. It makes more sense to me to make two reusable spacecraft for LLO operations: an automated one for cargo and a much smaller one for people. Neither would need aerodynamic surfaces, etc. that waste mass. Only small tanks and engines.

Apollo succeeded because we made specialized spacecraft for each segment of the mission. I don't see any reason to move away from that design ... if we plan on going to the Moon to stay.
 
2. SH could launch a stripped down SS to LEO but it doesn't really help. You'd still need large propellant tanks and a bunch of Raptors to go from LEO to LLO. You'd still need a dozen tanker flights to LEO to fill the tanks.

Interesting post. Do you mind explaining how you calculated a dozen SS Tanker flights to fill a Starship configured to go from LEO to LLO?

Back when SpaceX gave some details about how SS or it's precursor would take cargo and then crew to Mars from LEO, I don't recall them saying it would take that many tanker launches to gas up a Mars bound SS. I vaguely recall them saying it would take a few tanker trips and fuel transfers to do that.
 
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Interesting post. Do you mind explaining how you calculated a dozen SS Tanker flights to fill a Starship configured to go from LEO to LLO?

Back when SpaceX gave some details about how SS or it's precursor would take cargo and then crew to Mars from LEO, I don't recall them saying it would take that many tanker launches to gas up a Mars bound SS. I vaguely recall them saying it would take a few tanker trips and fuel transfers to do that.

Should be less than 12 to fill it. Starship's fuel load is 1,200 ton total and payload is >100t.
 
Interesting post. Do you mind explaining how you calculated a dozen SS Tanker flights to fill a Starship configured to go from LEO to LLO?
You can find that number many places. Here's one:

An Analysis of Lunar Starship's Delta-V Budget and Refueling Flights : SpaceXLounge

Look on the nasaspaceflight.com forums for more. The *exact* number isn't too important.

Back when SpaceX gave some details about how SS or it's precursor would take cargo and then crew to Mars from LEO, I don't recall them saying it would take that many tanker launches to gas up a Mars bound SS. I vaguely recall them saying it would take a few tanker trips and fuel transfers to do that.
The old saying in spaceflight goes something like this, once you're in LEO, you're halfway to anywhere. If you're going to Mars, you can eliminate a chunk of delta-v by using aerobraking instead of propulsive braking and save fuel. You don't have that luxury on the Moon.

Should be less than 12 to fill it. Starship's fuel load is 1,200 ton total and payload is >100t.
Sure, less than 12 but close to it. If the first SS arrives in LEO with 100 mT of propellant then it would take up to 11 more to get a full load since they only net 100 mT each.

The rocket equation is a killer, especially if your dry mass is constant like it is with SS. Do an analysis of the Apollo 11 mission given the mass landed on the Moon and the various Isp of the engines used to get there. Every kg on the Moon blows up the launch mass on Earth. Having a depot (or temporary depot like a tanker/accumulator SS) decouples the launch mass ... but only so much. You have to decouple the Moon surface mass from the LLO mass or else your LEO mass blows up.

That's why I've become more of an ISRU type than before (they're very loud!). The problem with the Moon is that methalox isn't readily available there while hydrolox is. Hydrolox isn't easy but it is possible. One study I read gave 45 mT of hydrolox per year from one facility.
 
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81 meters tall

That seems pretty tight for SH? No? Isn't it 70m by itself? That doesn't give a lot of room for stands at the bottom and a crane at the top, eh? Unless maybe 81m is the hook height?

For reference, the BAF for Ar5/6 and VIF for At5/Vulcan are ~90m and those rockets are something in the 50-60m range the MST for D4 is ~100m for a ~70m rocket.