Supercharger - Quartzsite, AZ

[juliusa]

Stating that the queues are shared "to an extent" isn't analyzing the problem.

Ignoring the interaction of the queues is what is not analyzing the problem.

I'll take the shorter charger line waits of the single queue thanks.

Not necessarily shorter. Ignores faster charging with lower SOC. Also ignores that charging speed may not be the variable being optimized - stopping time (even if both locations have identical amenities) may be the primary consideration.

The distances from Quartzsite to adjacent chargers are enough that virtually every car would be in the max charging level.

Do you own a Tesla? Done road trips? Location of a supercharger affects travel time.

LOL! If it hasn't happened, it ain't gonna happen?

LOL! If it hasn't happened, it's gonna happen? The sky has not fallen, but trust me - it will!! Right.

Ok, this is just being in denial. The point is not only does the system not balance in this situation, it oscillates because the time delay.

Balances. You are just wrong.

Who said anything about a guarantee? The simple issue is more waiting vs less waiting with a single queue or multiple queues.

I have pointed out the other considerations, and the fact that nearby superchargers operate similarly to a single queue.

A single queue of chargers approximately a half tank from other chargers will provide the lowest wait times and would be the best solution if there are no other population centers or frequent destinations in between.

Nope. Two 8-stall chargers at 1/3 and 2/3 would optimize travel time on that route better than a 16-stall charger in the middle.

I guess we'll see how things go in the next year.

YES!! Finally! Been doing just fine the past 5 years, no reason to think the coming year will be any different.
My guess is Tesla US sales are flat to a little up in 2019 compared to 2018. Big surge from M3 order backlog, diminishing tax credit, and end of free unlimited supercharging in 2018.

Supercharger network has been doing just fine, even with about a 100% increase in US Teslas in 2018. A 50% or so increase in 2019 will not be a problem.

 

[gnuarm]

Ignoring the interaction of the queues is what is not analyzing the problem.

Who's ignoring them? I specifically explained how the interaction is a negative thing compared to a single queue.

Not necessarily shorter. Ignores faster charging with lower SOC. Also ignores that charging speed may not be the variable being optimized - stopping time (even if both locations have identical amenities) may be the primary consideration.

What lower SoC? There's no reason why anyone would have to pull into a single queue with any higher SOC than they would with two queues. In fact, I've already explained how a single queue allows drivers to plan for the stop rather than not being sure which charger to plan for as they charge for to this leg of their trip.

Do you own a Tesla? Done road trips? Location of a supercharger affects travel time.

Yeah, what's your point. When you charge with the navigator it tells you how much charging to do to reach your next charger. No need to overcharge and no need to charge at less than max rate if possible. Not sure what you are going on about here.

LOL! If it hasn't happened, it's gonna happen? The sky has not fallen, but trust me - it will!! Right.

You are the only one talking about the sky falling. I guess that is your issue alone, so I won't bother to comment further.

Balances. You are just wrong.

I've specifically explained to you how the system can generate a wait line at one of two stations when a single queue would not have a wait line. You haven't bothered to respond to that other than "you are just wrong". Ok, I can't say much more about that.

I have pointed out the other considerations, and the fact that nearby superchargers operate similarly to a single queue.

"Similar" in a very crude way and I've explained how they aren't alike in a very clear way.

Nope. Two 8-stall chargers at 1/3 and 2/3 would optimize travel time on that route better than a 16-stall charger in the middle.

So you are proposing to shut down the Quartzsite station and move it elsewhere?

YES!! Finally! Been doing just fine the past 5 years, no reason to think the coming year will be any different.

Except for the huge increase in cars using the chargers. The question is how many chargers will be added to the network and how they will be added.

My guess is Tesla US sales are flat to a little up in 2019 compared to 2018. Big surge from M3 order backlog, diminishing tax credit, and end of free unlimited supercharging in 2018.

Do you realize if 2019 sales are flat compared to 2018 it will be a major setback and Tesla will be losing money? In 2018 the model 3 sales were Q3/4 loaded and 2019 should have close to double the sales of model 3 cars even if they can't expand the production rate. They are barely making money now and if the production/sales rate drops they will be in the red.

Supercharger network has been doing just fine, even with about a 100% increase in US Teslas in 2018. A 50% or so increase in 2019 will not be a problem.

You seem to think somehow the Supercharger network doesn't need to grow to keep up with the number of cars on the roads. Yes, there is excess charging capacity spread across the US. But that doesn't mean there won't be problems. There are problems now with people in the areas of denser Tesla ownership. I guess if you are expecting sales to drop off that explains your outlook. I expect to see congestion in more areas if Tesla doesn't step up their game.

But as I've said many times, Tesla has to provide adequate charging so the typical car owner will consider buying Teslas and not just the early adopting fanbois. This means they need to be a lot closer for trips as well as not congested.

 

[Bet TSLA]

Pretty clear by now that what we have here is a "concern troll". Can go on forever about how some non-issue may possibly become a problem in the future. Best ignored.

 

[David99]

In many areas Tesla has been adding superchargers between existing ones to give people the option where to charge. For several reasons that's preferable over adding more stalls to existing ones. Quartzsite just never got that. On the same route further west, Tesla put in two superchargers close to each other. Indio and Cabazon, just 40 miles apart. No one needs to charge after 40 miles, but it helped deal with the demand. Combined they have 26 stalls and both sites are full on busy days. Then comes Quartzsite with only 8 and it's hard to skip. A major bottle neck. The only thing that is slightly concerning is that on Tesla's 2019 map, there is nothing to help Quarzsite.

@Bet TSLA I love the term 'concern troll'.

 

[tmoz]

OK, time to unwatch this thread. See ya on another one later on.

 

[PLUS EV]

Pretty clear by now that what we have here is a "concern troll". Can go on forever about how some non-issue may possibly become a problem in the future. Best ignored.

I called this a long time ago, but here we are!

 

[juliusa]

What lower SoC?

When you drive 50 miles further, you have lower SoC. That is how it works.

You seem to think somehow the Supercharger network doesn't need to grow to keep up with the number of cars on the roads.

Correct. Stalls do not have to grow linearly with cars on the road to maintain statistical queues. That is simple queue theory.

It is also evident in the unchanged queues over the past 5 years.

This is an imagined crisis.

 

[juliusa]

Pretty clear by now that what we have here is a "concern troll".

 

[TaoJones]

Nobody would object if Qzsite doubled pedestals. However, there is reason to believe that the supply problem at that particular location is chronic. Hence it being bracketed already.

One very helpful solution, submitted as a feature request ad nauseum over the past 4 years, would be to provide the driver with near-real-time information about pedestal and site health in advance. Because automated optimized routing would just be too much to ask for, evidently, and because any information is better than no information.

Every single time that I've been substantially inconvenienced by a bad site (either completely down, completely impacted, or with multiple bad pedestals and artificially-induced congestion as a result) could have been avoided, or at least the impact could have been lessened by having that information.

Partial fix: Color code the pedestal bars green (at least 75% healthy), yellow (26%-74%), red (0-25%) and show occupancy with bright white and grey instead of red and grey. If an entire site is impacted, use the current symbol but provide actual useful info in the pop up.

Optimal fix: Route around impacted SCs and flag the impacted ones so that those who try to game the system don't outsmart themselves.

No, this will not happen automagically and it will not come at zero cost. Fewer easter eggs, more functional optimizations would be a good step in the right direction.

Instead, we'll get Sentry View only for AP2.5 cars and above before we get anything useful for route optimization.

And so it goes.

But hey, most owners still don't even use SCs, so for them it will continue to be an academic discussion anyway. My own $0.02 is that owning a Tesla and never taking it further than 100 miles from home is the equivalent of drinking bad wine from good crystal, but that's another discussion.

 

[cpa]

Partial fix: Color code the pedestal bars green (at least 75% healthy), yellow (26%-74%), red (0-25%) and show occupancy with bright white and grey instead of red and grey. If an entire site is impacted, use the current symbol but provide actual useful info in the pop up.

Optimal fix: Route around impacted SCs and flag the impacted ones so that those who try to game the system don't outsmart themselves.

Tesla should change the pop-up on the touchscreen to display this current information under your partial fix scenario. This information should be in at least 12-point type (preferably 18-point) and list every stall from 1A to 20B (for Kettleman City and Baker) with your green/yellow/red display. At least upon arrival, we won't be groping and guessing which stall to use. It would further assist those who wish to take a longish break by letting them select a slower charge speed to avoid the dreaded idle fees. The tiny red hash marks only suggest quantity, not quality, and they are hard to count.

Your optimal fix likely would work well on routes like Interstate 5 between the international border at San Ysidro and Sacramento or the Bay Area. There are many choices to stop, and many of them are shortish distances from each other. Interstate 10 from Cabazon/Indio east to Phoenix does not have a work around unless you wish to detour north then east on highway 62 and charge at Twentynine Palms before venturing into Arizona and then hitting Wickenburg before reaching Phoenix. Smaller batteries could not make Wickenburg from Twentynine Palms. In the alternative, you would be routed south on SR86 to El Centro before resuming your eastward trek on Interstate 8. Either way, these detours would add more than an hour of driving plus increased charging times over gutting it out at Quartzsite.

So, Tesla needs to infill Interstate 10 between Indio and Quartzsite. And expansion to 12 or even 16 stations at Quartzsite would help too. But there might be real estate or supply issues that would put a damper on expansion that we are unaware of.

Now, if you would be so kind to hand me that bottle of Spanada. I need to fill my Waterford crystal decanter.

 

[David99]

Smarter routing and more info about stalls can help a little, but it cannot fix the fundamental issue of having more cars than stalls available. If 30 cars need to charge at a station with 8 stalls, there is very little to optimize. All stalls are used and the site is most likely at capacity or very near.

Charging longer at the previous station to skip one shifts the issue to the other site. Now people charge to higher battery levels which takes longer so these stalls are occupied unproportionally longer and the site is used less efficiently. In this case Indio and Cabazon, which already are very busy most times would create a line.

But it gets worse! When a site is fully occupied it is often slowing down. Many sites do not have the capacity that the number of stalls would suggest. For example an 8 stall site would theoretically be able to deliver 4 x 135/144 kW = 550 - 580 kW. In reality it is probably a 500 kVA transformer that is shared with the fast food restaurant there. In other words when the site is full everyone is getting a slower charge rate forcing them to stay longer.

What makes the issue worse is that people get nervous when they see lines. They are worried it will be the same at the next one and they charge extra just to 'be safe'. This makes them stay even longer than they need cause the line to get longer even more.

Going east is Buckeye which I have never ever seen anything more than half full even when Quartzsite was full. It makes me believe that some people rather fill up in Quartzsite to make it all way home (in the Phoenix area) instead of charging just enough to make it to Buckeye.

Bottom line is, yes there is some room to optimize, but the root of the problem is too many cars needing energy for a site to be able to deliver. When there was a 23 car line at Barstow a few years ago Tesla reacted by installing 8 more stalls, and adding two more sites with 40 and 20 stalls each. Even on the busiest days this route has no issues any more. Three color lights won't fix Quartzsite. Only more and faster charging can help.

 

[gnuarm]

Bottom line is, yes there is some room to optimize, but the root of the problem is too many cars needing energy for a site to be able to deliver. When there was a 23 car line at Barstow a few years ago Tesla reacted by installing 8 more stalls, and adding two more sites with 40 and 20 stalls each. Even on the busiest days this route has no issues any more. Three color lights won't fix Quartzsite. Only more and faster charging can help.

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

If Tesla could and would fix problem sites like Quartzsite in a few months rather than having them persist, it would be a non-problem. Letting them linger on as regular congestion that anyone frequenting that route encounters on a weekend or holiday or whatever, then it provides opportunity for bad press not to mention the impact it has on owner satisfaction.

I know people don't like talking about Tesla shortcomings, but why wouldn't they address sites like this if they could?

 

[juliusa]

it cannot fix the fundamental issue of having more cars than stalls available. If 30 cars need to charge at a station with 8 stalls

Good thing Tesla is adding capacity so that condition has not existed, does not exist, and hopefully will not exist.

Now people charge to higher battery levels which takes longer so these stalls are occupied unproportionally longer and the site is used less efficiently.

Not so much with shared chargers.

Many sites do not have the capacity that the number of stalls would suggest. For example an 8 stall site would theoretically be able to deliver 4 x 135/144 kW = 550 - 580 kW. In reality it is probably a 500 kVA transformer that is shared with the fast food restaurant there.

I have not experienced that. Do you have an example of a supercharger location that operates that way? Is there additional equipment at the site that monitors the chargers and reduces power?

If Tesla could and would fix problem sites like Quartzsite

They can and are. supercharge.info

 

[David99]

I have not experienced that. Do you have an example of a supercharger location that operates that way? Is there additional equipment at the site that monitors the chargers and reduces power?

I have supercharged aprox 1200 times at 175 different sites in the last 5 years. I have seen this behavior many times at sites when they are near full, many times. Rancho Cucamonca is a good example. Quartzsite definitely, too. There sure is a system in place that reduces power based on many factors including a limit based on the utility transformer. Peak demand cost is another good reason to have such a limiter in place. It makes perfect sense to have more stalls than max power. Most sites are not full 99% of the time. Even if it's full, it is much better to have more stalls so people can plug in and leave their cars even if it means a slower charge rate. 4 cars waiting in line is 4 frustrated people. 4 extra stalls makes those 4 people happy. Odds are some cars are near full and only need little power, so to utilize the total available power it is of advantage to have extra stalls.

 

[juliusa]

I have supercharged aprox 1200 times at 175 different sites in the last 5 years.

Me too. Never seen charging behavior that looked like there was a site limit. Every transformer I have seen has had ample capacity to supply all chargers at full kW.

Most of the time I'm alone at a supercharger or maybe a couple of other cars. Rarely have they been full - so it is possible I have never hit that condition. It must be a pretty complicated controller that operates across multiple supercharger cabinets that monitors total load and gets them to dial back.

It makes perfect sense to have more stalls than max power.

Not sure why now that there are idle fees.

 

[TaoJones]

Either way, these detours would add more than an hour of driving plus increased charging times over gutting it out at Quartzsite.

So, Tesla needs to infill Interstate 10 between Indio and Quartzsite. And expansion to 12 or even 16 stations at Quartzsite would help too. But there might be real estate or supply issues that would put a damper on expansion that we are unaware of.

Now, if you would be so kind to hand me that bottle of Spanada. I need to fill my Waterford crystal decanter.

Good points all - especially about the net/gross travel time associated with any rerouting - maybe displaying those estimates as well would enable the driver to at least have a choice. And agreed that especially in the desert there are all manner of unknowns associated with supply and rights of way and such. I've always found the western Arizona I-10 corridor SCs curious given their relative proximity to (well, upwindish of) a reasonably well-functioning nuclear plant.

Consider your bottle of Spanada duly handed and well earned, senor. If only Tesla would read and act upon your observations.

I'd even throw in a lukewarm bottle of Boone's Farm (strawberry-flavored). No corkscrew necessary. And for bonus points, maybe some Ripple or Mad Dog 20/20. Hey, that was high cotton back in one's impoverished college days. Had to brush your teeth with something.

 

[cpa]

I'd even throw in a lukewarm bottle of Boone's Farm (strawberry-flavored). No corkscrew necessary. And for bonus points, maybe some Ripple or Mad Dog 20/20. Hey, that was high cotton back in one's impoverished college days. Had to brush your teeth with something.

My first job from high school through college was at a liquor store. Besides Pagan Pink and Pear Ripple selling for 69 cents a fifth, we also purveyed Red Mountain Burgundy in the gallon jug complete with thumb hole for hoisting on one's bent arm for the every day low price of $1.99. This was in the days when all alcoholic beverages sold retail in California were subject to minimum prices set by the state. Guys who wanted to impress their girlfriends bought Mateus Rose or Lancer's.

But we are drifting off into the morass and might be subject to reproof from our friendly and overworked moderator.

 

[TaoJones]

My first job from high school through college was at a liquor store. Besides Pagan Pink and Pear Ripple selling for 69 cents a fifth, we also purveyed Red Mountain Burgundy in the gallon jug complete with thumb hole for hoisting on one's bent arm for the every day low price of $1.99. This was in the days when all alcoholic beverages sold retail in California were subject to minimum prices set by the state. Guys who wanted to impress their girlfriends bought Mateus Rose or Lancer's.

But we are drifting off into the morass and might be subject to reproof from our friendly and overworked moderator.

"reproof", he sez. Yanno, to quote Lucky Jack's ship's doctor, "He who would pun would pick a pocket". You're probably right - doubtful the moderator would accept a gallon of Red Mountain as a panacea, despite it perhaps being the, um, wait for it, lesser of two weevils.

In all seriousness, or at least with a modicum of seriousness, and especially given the new wrinkle of creative SC vandalism (see one of my favorite SCs, St. George, Utah recently), I'm tempted to stash a gallon of similar swill and a case of proper stemware for the next time there's a sitewide outage at an SC along the critical path - be it Quartzsite or elsewhere. Might as well enjoy the ride until Tesla someday follows through upon the promise to give drivers more en route intel.

I'm due in West Texas (Fort Stockton SC) for the Golden Spike Ceremony on Feb 9th, and can already tell I'm going to charge more at Buckeye westbound and maybe Indio eastbound to avoid even the potentiality of a bottleneck at Quartzsite as I won't have a lot of time to spare this time through on either end.

 

[Sharkdiver76]

I didn't read this whole thread, however I did see that Blythe was mentioned as a possible location and some shot it down. As someone who travels from San Diego to Laughlin a few times a year to visit parents that would be a great location for a charger. The shortest route for me would be to drive east on the 8 through el Centro and then take CA78, unfortunately I would have to drive out of my way to get to Quartzsite in order to make it from El Centro to Needles. So for now I have to drive through Indio which has been getting full every time I use it now. Twentynine palms is out of the question since I have 2 kids and they aren't even allowed inside the snack bar at the casino.

 

[PLUS EV]

I didn't read this whole thread, however I did see that Blythe was mentioned as a possible location and some shot it down. As someone who travels from San Diego to Laughlin a few times a year to visit parents that would be a great location for a charger. The shortest route for me would be to drive east on the 8 through el Centro and then take CA78, unfortunately I would have to drive out of my way to get to Quartzsite in order to make it from El Centro to Needles. So for now I have to drive through Indio which has been getting full every time I use it now. Twentynine palms is out of the question since I have 2 kids and they aren't even allowed inside the snack bar at the casino.

I've done that drive many times as well but there aren't many sickos like us out there lol. The nice thing is you have many options going east on I-8, through LA metro (I rarely do this for obvious reasons), or even over the top through Anza or Julian.

If I were making your usual El Centro to Needles drive, I would probably just charge to full and drive slowly in your car. If I were in my S100D, it wouldn't be a tough stretch at all. You may want to consider upgrading But I agree that having to detour to Quartzsite is pretty lame.