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Supercharging Hypothetical #3 -- Inappropriate or not?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by LetsGoFast, Aug 18, 2015.

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What do you think of Elmo's supercharger usage?

Poll closed Nov 16, 2015.
  1. Elmo is abusive and inappropriate to use the supercharger this way

    11 vote(s)
    12.8%
  2. Elmo's use is inappropriate and I would have picked abusive in the old format

    4 vote(s)
    4.7%
  3. Elmo's use is inappropriate but I would NOT have picked abusive in the old format

    9 vote(s)
    10.5%
  4. Elmo is fine to use the supercharger this way.

    62 vote(s)
    72.1%
  1. LetsGoFast

    LetsGoFast Active Member

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    Elmo lives in the same small town as his buddy Ernie. He always charges at night with his home HPWC to 80% and his daily commute generally leaves him at 30% at the end of the day, depending on how many errands he has to run in the evening and if he has to go to different studios during the day. He also finds the location of the town's supercharger at the only mall in town to be very convenient and he is usually at the mall twice a week either shopping or eating out. Normally, the only other car he ever sees at the supercharger is Ernie's but if he ever sees two stalls occupied, he doesn't use the supercharger because he doesn't really need it. However, if the supercharger is not being used, he always plugs in and charges to 80% while he is doing his eating or shopping.

    Ernie's hypothetical, for those who missed it.
     
  2. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Active Member

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    If nothing else, we have plenty of Supercharging Anxiety in the air after the recent Tesla comms. :)
     
  3. sorka

    sorka Active Member

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    His use is fine as long as he charged at home when he could and that he also isn't making special trips to the mall on the way home *just* to save money from charging at home.
     
  4. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    #4 Johan, Aug 19, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
    I voted inappropriate and abusive.

    There is however something that begs the question: Why did Tesla place Superchargers at a mall in a town? This might suggest that this particular charger is more of an Urbancharger.
     
  5. Neo

    Neo Member

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    #5 Neo, Aug 19, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
    I voted A. I think the poll would have been better with just two options. Now you have A+B+C competing against D. If the results are 20% each for A,B,C and 40% for D, then it will appear like most people say it is fine which is incorrect because 60% voted inappropriate.

    This is not just about blocking or not blocking the supercharger for others. It is also about costs. Currently on average each Model S supercharges 27 times per year. That is a lot. It is more than 5 times Tesla's allocated funds.
     
  6. spentan

    spentan Active Member

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    The Rancho Cucamonga (CA) Supercharger is 12 cables at Victoria Gardens (which is a mall).

    The Culver City (CA) Supercharger is 12 cables at Westfield (Fox Hills) Mall
     
  7. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    Forgive mye geographical ignorace, but are these locations also well suited for long distance travellers (close to interstate, between big cities)?
     
  8. spentan

    spentan Active Member

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    Not at all, The Rancho Cucamonga one is just off the Interstate (15) on the way North out of SoCal. (towards Vegas/etc).

    The Fox Hills Mall (Culver City), however, is on the Interstate (405), but is in the vicinity of 3 other supercharging locations (Hawthorne and Redondo Beach), within a 5-10 mile radius.

    That's 32 Charging Pedestals within a 5-10mi radius
     
  9. m6bigdog

    m6bigdog Member

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    I anticipate the Supercharger was not intended to support your employment commute and/or to offset the travel cost of your employment responsibilities if that is what the studio visits are.
    I say charge to 90-100% each day as Tesla has a battery warranty and save the Superchargers for the occasional personal out of town long distance travel.
     
  10. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    Thanks. So here's where problems can arise: a SC location that can act both as long-distance enabler but at the same time as a convenient charger for locals. A charger in central London or Hong-Kong is obviusly meant for local charging, while one along a highway with few people living within miles is obviously for roadtripping. If someone kept driving to and from the obvious road trip charger to do all their charging that would be abusive. In this hypothetical example it's not as clear cut.
     
  11. LetsGoFast

    LetsGoFast Active Member

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    I can appreciate your point and for consistency's sake I would have just left "abusive" as the only choice, but several people objected to the term so I decided to sneak a bonus poll in on that question. At the moment, the results suggest that I may as well have left it alone.

    I'm puzzled by your assertion that charging 27 times annually is more than 5 times what Tesla has budgeted for charging. If Tesla planned the average user to charge 5 times per year, that is extremely poor planning. I'll probably take 3 road trips this year, each of which requires 2 Supercharger stops in each direction which is 12 charges per year. I would imagine I am on the low end of what anyone would reasonably have predicted. I've also read that Tesla allocates $500 per car as a liability to offset future electric consumption of Supercharger use. At an average of 5 charges per year that implies that Tesla predicts the car to run a very long time indeed.

    In fact, three of the four currently operational superchargers in Virginia are located at shopping centers or malls. The one I was imagining when I wrote this is the Salisbury, MD supercharger, which Wikipedia tells me is the only shopping mall in a 60 mile radius.

    Many superchargers in my neck of the woods would potentially fit this "potential dual use" scenario. Of the ones I've been to 6 of the 8 fit that description: Glen Allen, Woodbridge, Norfolk, Bethesda, Hagerstown and Salisbury. Newark, DE is in the median of a busy interstate and South Hill is next to the interstate at a small restaurant, both of which seem pretty much to imply an exclusive interstate purpose (although I've met a local charging at Newark). You could also really argue that Bethesda is "intended" for local charging than interstate driving anyhow -- it only has two stalls, it isn't very convenient to the interstate and it is located near the entrance of a shopping mall.
     
  12. Panoz

    Panoz Member

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    Superchargers are meant to facilitate EV use, and to overcome the biggest issue confronting Tesla owners - travel infrastructure. This argument about when someone uses a charger - reserving it for distance travel only - is nuts. The original scenario where a person uses an empty SC to fill his car is not "abusive" - how did anyone even state that? He paid for the service, isn't preventing an emergency fill-up, is harming no one.

    There will always be one guy who rides Space Mountain at Disneyland 100 times in one day. His admission ticket lets him do so. He will be outweighed by those who ride once and go to the next ride. If you say "all rides are included in the admission price" then you'll always get that mix of people. It's part of the business, folks, and obsessing about owner who never charges at home seems petty to me. It's far too convenient to charge at home, so most will do it.
     
  13. tomas

    tomas Traded in 9 rep bars for M3, used to be somebody!

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    Now you are splitting hairs with abusive vs inappropriate. Loved the prior scenarios. Can't answer this one bcause it depends. If he comes in at 70% and plugs in and then goes on 2 hours of shopping/dining, he is hogging a space for 1 hour and 50 minutes, which is same as icing.
     
  14. LetsGoFast

    LetsGoFast Active Member

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    FWIW, my intent was that the hypothetical ensured no traveller was unable to charge. That's why I specified 7 open bays and I also envisioned that he would move his car promptly.
     
  15. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    Why doesn't he charge to 90% like Tesla recommends for daily use if he drives a lot? As long as he is by his car when it's done charging at the mall it's within his rights to charge there even if not necessary.
     
  16. tomas

    tomas Traded in 9 rep bars for M3, used to be somebody!

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    Yes, and Tesla's intent was that all owners would act responsibly, but clearly there are different perspectives on "responsibly", plus some people who seem to feel no responsibility. Your poll is bearing that out. So, let me pose you a real life refinement of your scenario. Elmo is in the middle of dinner at the mall, chatting with family, phone on vibrate (as you should at restaurant). Vibration tells him he's got an alert. Tesla charging is complete. They are maybe a half hour from paying the check. And, there's one store on way to car where his daughter needs to buy a new "top". There was one car at supercharger when he plugged in. So, he figures, no big deal, I'll be there in an hour to unplug. Not going to walk all the way across the mall to unplug when supercharger is probably empty. Shortly after he plugged in, 4 owners convoying on the way to TMC Connect pulled in to charge. They found one bank of 2 chargers not functioning. They all plugged in, taking up the remaining 4 chargers, and head to nearby fast food for quick meal. So, while Elmo is thinking "all's cool", the superchargers are actually all taken. A few minutes later, I pulled in on the way to Omaha. Saw two chargers available... drat, they're out of commission. Where the F are all these guys? How long am I going to have to sit here? Geez, these 2 cars are fully charged (Elmo & Ernie). Where ARE these guys? Tapping fingers for 45 minutes until the darned puppets show up.
     
  17. NOLA_Mike

    NOLA_Mike Active Member

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    OT: Elmo should grab Ernie and find Bert then chill out and hit the open road in the Tesla...:smile:
    GRP-p018crp-SST.jpg
     
  18. MassModel3

    MassModel3 Member

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    I would offer that after 20 or 30 minutes Elmo should go move his car off the supercharger. Since he doesn't really need it, any more than that may constitute abuse or the ICE'ing equivalent. The charge is not needed, but since 50% recharge can be obtained in 20 minutes, a quick plug in should be fine.
     
  19. MichFin

    MichFin Member

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    I think it's just fine. The other day I went to Ann Arbor for a dinner and a show and parked at a parking garage that had free EV charging with paid parking. I didn't need the charge to get home but there were 4 spots and nobody in them so I charged up. They are there to be used and we have the right to use them.

    As for superchargers it's the same thing... We paid around $2500 directly or indirectly for the right to supercharge for free for the lifetime of the car. As long as you're not being a jerk blocking others that NEED the charge then by all means go for it.

    If you're only means of charging the car is the supercharger because you live in an apartment then use as needed.

    If you are trying to save $30 a month by supercharging as your only source of power after you spend $100k on a car you got bigger issues.
     
  20. LetsGoFast

    LetsGoFast Active Member

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    I think a best practice at a supercharger is to either have eyes on your car or leave a note with your cell # or other contact method in case that situation arises. At a minimum, I'd say Elmo has an ethical obligation to step outside and confirm that the conditions are unchanged at the supercharger every 15 minutes or so once he is done charging and I think moving his car once he has a full charge would be clearly better. Personally, I might be willing to leave my car at a stall with a note when I had a high confidence it would be unused after it finished charging for a short period of time.
     

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