Taycan Takedown

[30seconds]

I wish that Porsche would have made an electric 911. That would have been a statement about the future.

 

[MXWing]

I wish that Porsche would have made an electric 911. That would have been a statement about the future.

Agreed, but three questions would happen:

1.) How many can be made?
2.) How much will cost?
3.) What can it be sold for?

None of the answers are pretty. Even Tesla is struggling with al 3 despite being many steps ahead.

 

[dfwatt]

I wish that Porsche would have made an electric 911. That would have been a statement about the future.

I agree that the Panabanana body doesn't do much for most of us, and the 911 shape is more appealing, but not sure what an electric 911 would even look like? Rear motor only? Sitting behind the drive wheels even? Porsche made that configuration finally (mostly) safe after decades of trailing throttle oversteer, but wouldn't it make sense to start with a clean sheet of paper, the way Tesla did, and with more mid-mounted motor(s)?

 

[Daniel in SD]

I agree that the Panabanana body doesn't do much for most of us, and the 911 shape is more appealing, but not sure what an electric 911 would even look like? Rear motor only? Sitting behind the drive wheels even? Porsche made that configuration finally (mostly) safe after decades of trailing throttle oversteer, but wouldn't it make sense to start with a clean sheet of paper, the way Tesla did, and with more mid-mounted motor(s)?

I like the Panbanana because it's available in wagon form
It would make more sense to make an all electric 918 since it's already partially electric and better than the 911.

 

[dfwatt]

Wow - this thread sure did generate some serious interest - and some heat too! I guess that's not surprising given that the Porsche Taycan is the first serious competition for Tesla, as the Jaguar I pace and the Audi E Tron SUV aren't really much competition. The problem is the Taycan lines up more against the Model 3 Performance in many ways, and while outperforming it slightly, and likely having better thermal management (and for sure way better thermal management than the aging Model S), but in the Premium Turbo S form, it's 3 times as expensive.

In any case here's how I would see these matchups, even though in many ways these cars are not really optimally lined up as competition for one another:

1) Range – from the recently released European mileage cycle numbers, even the premium Turbo S Taycan may take a backseat to the model S and even the Model 3 DMP.

2) Charging/Charging Network – also no competition and although on paper it may have some advantages with being able to charge at 270 kW, how many places can you actually get that level of charging? And how long will it take before Porsche and Audi have even 500 of these high-level chargers available in the United States? At least several years. The Model 3 will be able to charge at 250 kW on version 3 superchargers, and it looks like it's a draw on charging speed there, even if the Taycan has some theoretical advantages on the Model S. However the wide availability of superchargers means that Tesla realistically wins on this point too.

2) Build quality – likely to be a clear slamdunk for the Porsche. Tesla's got a lot of work still to do on this. It's downright embarrassing. In the quality of the materials on the interior is also not comparable, which is particularly troubling in a premium sedan like the Model S, but even the Model 3's interior needs a material quality upgrade commensurate with its ~$60,000 price.

3) Handling/Trackability/Performance – still not clear what this is going to drive like but it is going to come in at something like 4700 pounds. I suspect it will be a way better driver's car than the Model S, but it's still unlikely to feel as light on its feet as the Model 3 DMP. Will have to wait and see what the full instrumented road tests look like, but I have to believe it's not going to really be much quicker around most tracks than a dual motor performance that is suitably upgraded (MPP coilover, Track tires, racing pads, etc.) We are all still waiting for somebody to generate a solid time on Nurbergring In a well-prepared model 3. @MountainPass – does this have any appeal? My personal yet to be designed track Goodie for the model 3? – A Temperature sensitive water spritzer system for the cooling system radiator, to help it keep battery and motor temperatures down in track mode. Have to believe that this could be designed and implemented for pretty modest money. Again, @MountainPass – you guys interested in developing this? Could mean that you really get something like a 50% bump in heat tolerance meaning a lot more laps before battery and motor are heat soaked.

4) Cachet value – well, let's face it, only the Italian exotics and McLaren have more cachet value than Porsche. Is this a real criteria? Yes it is any time you're spending north of $100K.

5) Value for the dollar – here's where it really gets subjective, but I think the Model 3 Performance wins this one hands down. But see #4, as cars with higher cachet value don't have to be great values to be successful in the marketplace.

6) Styling – this is where it gets impossibly subjective. The Tesla S is classically styled but looks a bit dated from the rear, I'm not a big fan of the 'panabanana' body, but they've done a pretty nice job with this - especially from the rear. I still like the Model 3's styling especially from the side and the front.

I do think the Taycan is a real throw down to Tesla to up their game on the track and particularly to update the model S, which is clearly showing its age.

What would Tesla need to do to make the Model S more fully competitive? And what could it do to support the model three as the Value proposition? The model S needs a significant an across-the-board updating and redesign, while the model 3 could benefit from a few modest tweaks and options.

1) Significant updating of the somewhat ponderous S chassis - perhaps even with some modest weight loss without loss of battery pack size or range.

2) Release of a 'Rally Sport' version of both the Model S and the Model 3, with fully adjustable shocks, significantly lowered and adjustable ride height, upgraded brakes, extreme performance/trackable tires as standard, significant upgrades to cooling and thermal regulation, especially for the S. Track mode should contain 'sliders' that allows adjustment and fine tuning of torque/hp outputs front and rear. Rally sport version of the Model 3 gets an additional 50 hp through upgraded inverter.

3) Improved quality control and especially upgraded interior materials.

4) Model S battery pack that hits the magic 400 mile EPA number, to really underscore Porsche's disadvantage there. 350 mile range in the Model 3 Next generation battery pack.

5) Tracking software built into the cars computing systems.

Am I dreaming? Well, let's hope not! What do you guys think? What would you add to this list?

Bottom line – competition makes everybody better. And Tesla has done an amazing job in both the S and now the Model 3. Let's see what Tesla does in response to Porsche's Challenge in what is obviously a first serious effort to compete with Tesla

 

[Daniel in SD]

The Model S isn't really in the same class as the Taycan (large luxury car vs. mid-size sports sedan). If Tesla wants to compete directly with the Taycan they'll have to make a higher performance version of the Model 3. I'm not sure why they'd want to compete with the Taycan anyway though since it's such a niche market. Might as well make a hypercar like the New Roadster as the halo car and make a slightly higher performance Model 3 to bridge the gap a little bit.
I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla ditches the Model S entirely and makes the Model X their only large car. The market for large luxury cars that aren't CUVs shrinks every year.

 

[wenkan]

I was really hoping porsche marketing department can do something like the driving experience program bmw is doing now. Invite local tesla owners, especially sports driving enthusiasts to test the taycan for free, in methods like autocross. Even racing the taycan against their own teslas on autocross or drag strip? That would be the most effective way to attract potential customers.

However considering such a huge price gap that sounds less meaningful now.

 

[brkaus]

Whaaaaat? Adaptive Cruise Control isn't included. And it's a $2k option! The one that knows the speed limits is $3k. Isn't that a safety feature? Shouldn't they include it in the base package? How dare they.

(Just repeating what I've heard here about the S/X/3)

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

it is going to come in at something like 4700 pounds.

If "it" is the Taycan Turbo S, it is a stunning 5121 pounds.

(large luxury car vs. mid-size sports sedan).

I agree one is a luxury car and the other is a sports sedan. But they are 195/196 inches in length, and both 77 inches in width (who knows whether this includes mirrors, but the point is they are quite similar in size).

The market for large luxury cars that aren't CUVs shrinks every year.

They should make a CUV version of the S. They need to dump that X; it is an abomination.

 

[Daniel in SD]

They should make a CUV version of the S. They need to dump that X; it is an abomination.

I guess the Model X is minivan with less functional doors but it's still better than a minivan with regular doors (which is what large CUVs are). They should just put minivan doors on the Model X and call it a day . At least then it would be a more functional abomination.

I agree one is a luxury car and the other is a sports sedan. But they are 195/196 inches in length, and both 77 inches in width (who knows whether this includes mirrors, but the point is they are quite similar in size).

I didn't realize it's that huge. Anyway, I still think it would be silly to make the Model S a Taycan competitor. Tesla should focus their development efforts on CUVs.

 

[Eno Deb]

2) Charging/Charging Network – also no competition and although on paper it may have some advantages with being able to charge at 270 kW, how many places can you actually get that level of charging? And how long will it take before Porsche and Audi have even 500 of these high-level chargers available in the United States? At least several years.

Actually, that will probably happen in less than a year (~480 cycle 1 EA sites, plus ~180 Porsche dealerships with 350kW CCS chargers).

The Model 3 will be able to charge at 250 kW on version 3 superchargers, and it looks like it's a draw on charging speed there, even if the Taycan has some theoretical advantages on the Model S. However the wide availability of superchargers means that Tesla realistically wins on this point too.

And when will Tesla have even 500 of these v3 chargers?

3) Handling/Trackability/Performance – still not clear what this is going to drive like but it is going to come in at something like 4700 pounds. I suspect it will be a way better driver's car than the Model S, but it's still unlikely to feel as light on its feet as the Model 3 DMP.

The Taycan will easily compensate this through its much more elaborate suspension and features such as anti-roll bar and rear-wheel steering, as well as vastly superior performance compared to the Model 3 (you're talking about a 600+ hp car). Don't kid yourself. The Model 3 Performance is a great value, but it isn't in the same league as the Taycan Turbo/Turbo S (and obviously you pay for that). Perhaps it'll be closer to the future entry-class Taycans.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

They should just put minivan doors on the Model X and call it a day

Best idea I have heard all day. Super good idea. Pass the 4x8 plywood sheet test too.

 

[wenkan]

Actually, that will probably happen in less than a year (~480 cycle 1 EA sites, plus ~180 Porsche dealerships with 350kW CCS chargers).
And when will Tesla have even 500 of these v3 chargers?
The Taycan will easily compensate this through its much more elaborate suspension and features such as anti-roll bar and rear-wheel steering, as well as vastly superior performance compared to the Model 3 (you're talking about a 600+ hp car). Don't kid yourself. The Model 3 Performance is a great value, but it isn't in the same league as the Taycan Turbo/Turbo S (and obviously you pay for that). Perhaps it'll be closer to the future entry-class Taycans.

No one else use 800V battery than Porsche. Considering the crazy price point and low production amount (20k a year global). I really doubt anyone would bother installing 800V chargers other than porsche dealers.

If you use 400V EA chargers, then you only have 135kw charging (half of the claimed 270kw). Which is slower than tesla sc. Charging at a dealer? They are not easy to find when you need them (on a road trip), also what can you do when you are stranded in middle of the car dealers? Must be purely bored.

 

[Eno Deb]

No one else use 800V battery than Porsche. Considering the crazy price point and low production amount (20k a year global). I really doubt anyone would bother installing 800V chargers other than porsche dealers.

You are misinformed. 800V (actually up to 1000V) charging is part of the CCS standard. All CCS chargers with more than 250kW power support 800V charging. And EA has one or two 350kW chargers at almost all of their sites.

If you use 400V EA chargers, then you only have 135kw charging (half of the claimed 270kw).

The Taycan charges up to 150kW at 400V.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The Taycan charges up to 150kW at 400V.

If you pay $600 for that option. Otherwise, only 50kW for the plebes.

 

[Eno Deb]

If you pay $600 for that option. Otherwise, only 50kW for the plebes.

When I checked yesterday it was only $460. Does it really matter on a $150k+ car?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

When I checked yesterday it was only $460

I stand corrected! Too many numbers! What a bargain.

 

[juanmedina]

Popcorn

 

[Daniel in SD]

View attachment 451007

Popcorn

This is odd. The Model 3P is faster around a track than the Model S. Maybe they've got a new special edition Model S?

 

[juanmedina]

This is odd. The Model 3P is faster around a track than the Model S. Maybe they've got a new special edition Model S?

I rather see the Model S beat the Tycan. Wider sticky tires and track pads and call it the Nurburgring edition . I wonder if the 355x32mm steel rotors will stay cool enough for the lap?