There is no "better brakes" unless one of them get overheating, the grip is all about tires. Yes Taycan should have some advantage in top end acceleration. But since the straight is so long, both of them can run most of the straight in top speed. The advantage of top end acceleration combined with the disadvantage in cornering, it's hard to say which will win. But definitely not "unlikely".
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Taycan Takedown
- Thread starter evalst2018
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Eno Deb
Active Member
By "better brakes" I obviously meant longevity. I also seriously doubt that the Taycan has a "disadvantage in cornering" compared to a Model 3. On the contrary, it will likely be more stable in corners due to the rear-axle steering.
I'll place a gentleman's wager that the Taycan won't reach 230-235 miles of real usable highway range, at a steady 80 mph - and that's without white knuckling it, or going to below recommended charge levels. This would mean greater than 300 EPA range, probably more like 310+ and I'd be frankly stunned if it hit that number. If the bloated E-Tron is any benchmark, it won't.
If it comes in at 5.1k lbs, has a 95kWhr battery, and has the same efficiency and drag coefficient as the Model 3 (all seriously optimistic assumptions in my estimation), it would just clear that 300 EPA rated range. All of that is of course optimistic, based on E tron weight, and estimated mileage. And it's just inconceivable that its CD with the Panabanana body is going to be as good as the Model 3.
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AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I'll take you up on that! I do think it'll be close, so I think it's a good wager. That is just under the P3D+ range at that speed, so it would be an excellent result. (For 100%-0% at 80mph in P3D+ I would expect no more than about 240 miles.)
It's surprisingly hard to figure out the details...even for the E-Tron, which is available for sale...I still can't find an official document with the weight. Google claims 5700 pounds!?! For the Taycan it is allegedly 4400 pounds (but likely not the official number). Anyway, that would be a big difference.
In addition, I read somewhere that the e-tron maintains a reserve battery capacity of 11-12% to preserve the battery, so usable capacity is "only" 84kWh or so. But 46kWh/100mi! That IS craptastic! (The approximate math not accounting for charging loss differences checks out.... 84kWh/78kWh*310rmi/204rmi = 1.64 => 29kWh/100mi * 1.64 = 47.5kWh/100mi.) I expect the Porsche will do substantially better though. We'll see if they maintain the reserve capacity... Looking at Model X consumption numbers, it does appear a big portion of the e-tron's terrible result (64% more energy consumption than a Model 3 AWD) is due to aero (and weight). But not all...
I guess once we know all the specs in a couple weeks, the answers will be pretty clear.
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So what is the Model S performance time? Is it slower? by how much?Right. If any Tesla came close to such a time, I'd bet people here would start 4th of July fireworks.
7:42 is excellent for a heavy sedan. That's Cayman GT4 territory.
Yeah, the sure sign of range not being especially competitive is them not talking about it much and trying to focus elsewhere. "taycan range" in Google gives you wikipedia as the top hit - with the marketing budget of VW that means they just don't want to talk about it.
The "but it can do lots of laps repeatedly" is also classic marketing redirection and weird since it won't be relevant to most people - it suggests they will need things to point at.
e-Tron was the same - no mention of the range on the website at all even days before launch. Then when they finally had to reveal it they were ready with "but... but... er... we saved some capacity for you and that's why - this battery will last years longer because of the favour we're doing you" - the mental gymnastics they have to try is pretty funny. I'm sure we'll see something similar if the taycan range isn't close to a Model S.
....but we don't know the EPA rating or really anything about the real world range. Sure it is probably lower and I have even speculated this. However it does have an ace in the hole. A 2 speed trans. This could boost the range substantially. Still only time will tell but too soon to write off as not having range.....From its side, the Porsche Taycan is saddled with relatively poor range, and (IMHO) even poorer styling from the Panabanana Americana. But I'm sure it's going to be a great driver's car, at least relative to its weight, which is likely north of 4600 lbs. Even aside from that, it's got some real issues - I'll be stunned if it can do 200 miles at 80 miles an hour without running into nailbiting range anxiety, so it's 0 to 200 kph time is pretty much irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. Similarly, all the hype about repeatability (obviously aimed at the Model S's Achilles' heel) is of interest only for people who care more about bragging rights than about living with the car on a day-to-day basis.....!
voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
I always enjoy reading your thoughtful posts Alan.
There's a lot of contentiousness on this thread. Some of it no doubt comes from the fact that Porsche has earned an enormous amount of respect for their undeniable performance car and racing car achievements. And yet the performance weaknesses of this very expensive Taycan relative to both the slightly less expensive Tesla S and the much less expensive Model 3 Performance are undeniable.
I think it illustrates just how far out in front Tesla is currently, in relationship to the critical Tech areas of motor, electronic, battery and charging technology. I do think the Taycan on the other hand underscores how the Model S is badly in need of a chassis, battery, and overall refresh. I'm sure they could incorporate some of the cooling technology that was put into the Model 3 to make its performance more repeatable, while giving it a much better and less ponderous feeling chassis.
From its side, the Porsche Taycan is saddled with relatively poor range, and (IMHO) even poorer styling from the Panabanana Americana
So I think the Taycan illustrates that even the elite "real" auto manufacturers are serious finally about EV's, points to some areas that Tesla needs to work on, especially on its flagship sedan, but also confirms Tesla's fundamental advantages in the core technologies that will break or make electric vehicle acceptance and transition.
And it sure does give @MountainPass a target on Nurbergring! Can't wait to see them beat it!
Porsche Taycan is an aspiration purchase for the well heeled the same way the S and X Tesla were as recently as a couple of years ago. I suspect they will sell as many as they can build to those who covet the exclusivity as well as those who covet the performance aspects of an electrified Porsche.
Tesla really needs to do a bigger revamp of Model S and X than was seen with the Blackbird revamp. The model S in particular is getting rather long in the tooth and what has kept it selling well has to be the complete lack of competition to date. Taycan changes that.
As has been pointed out by others, Porsche has the entire Volkswagen Audi Group (VAG) standing behind it. Build quality and service for the car will be outstanding.
The lack of charging infrastructure will be a concern for those who want to use it for inter-metro travel but that's changing.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
If the Taycan does better in EPA rating than about 36kWh/100 mi ( Model S P100D does about 35kWh/100mi), I would say that Porsche is doing well, and that shows they have a close-to-competitive-efficiency drivetrain. That would give it 260mi EPA range, assuming the same size 95kWh battery and they do the same battery limiting as in the e-tron (I think this is about the same (slightly less) EPA range as the P3D+ would get, if they tested it).
It's true we might not see those official numbers for a while...
It's true we might not see those official numbers for a while...
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We are agreed on those parametrics if Porsche can bring them in as being impressive. However they're so far away from those on the e-tron I'm not sure how they can pull that off. In any case for a hundred and thirty thousand bucks there are a lot of compromises on practicality, relative to the seamlessness and the lack of grief in our experience on long road trips with the model 3 and the abundance of superchargers. I guess you have to give up something if you're going to be able to do 0 to 120 launches repeatedly. That and fur-lined sinks are in my top 10 of useless features, although Tesla would do well to give the new model S that kind of thermal regulation. For sure the competition is making everybody better.
Tesla has set the bar pretty high, but real competition would be great for everybody. So I hope they pull off a great car in the taycan. I hope it inspires a Rally Sport version of the Model S with 750 horsepower, 400 miles of range, a better chassis, much better brakes, and much better heat management, maybe while achieving a little bit of weight loss. Then again, maybe I'm just dreaming.
We are agreed on those parametrics if Porsche can bring them in as being impressive. However they're so far away from those on the e-tron I'm not sure how they can pull that off. In any case for a hundred and thirty thousand bucks there are a lot of compromises on practicality, relative to the seamlessness and the lack of grief in our experience on long road trips with the model 3 and the abundance of superchargers. I guess you have to give up something if you're going to be able to do 0 to 120 launches repeatedly
. That and fur-lined sinks are in my top 10 of useless features, although Tesla would do well to give the new model S that kind of thermal regulation. For sure the competition is making everybody better.Tesla has set the bar pretty high, but real competition would be great for everybody. So I hope they pull off a great car in the taycan. I hope it inspires a Rally Sport version of the Model S with 750 horsepower, 400 miles of range, a better chassis, much better brakes, and much better heat management, maybe while achieving a little bit of weight loss. Then again, maybe I'm just dreaming.
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You do know this is the definition of ALL Porsche cars.
For sure but at least you can drive those cars cross-country fairly painlessly assuming you don't mind a little bit of extra noise and a somewhat firm ride. They appear to have really backed away from their claim of 350 kilowatt charging and right now they have no charging infrastructure that competes with superchargers. So it's more than just a little bit of a dent in practicality. But you do get the consolation of the cache value of that great Porsche badging.
This car will be as successful as the eTron, the other Tesla killers.
Porche enthusiasts will likely not want to steer to an EV, some
EV enthusiasts will keep buying Teslas on the high end...leafs, M3, on the low end
Porche enthusiasts will likely not want to steer to an EV, some
EV enthusiasts will keep buying Teslas on the high end...leafs, M3, on the low end
That is exactly my point...the datapoints on the taycan are a distraction from what it is lacking.
The most disappointing thing for me with this time is that it pales in comparison to the AMG GT 63 S. Yes, that car is a dino drinking dinosaur, but a 7:25 ring time is amazing for 4 passenger a car that weighs 4,500+ lbs. For those who think rear wheel steering does not help, this should put that to rest. To be clear, the AMG E63S which is several hundred pounds lighter and has roughly the same power with a very similar chassis is significantly slower on the ring. The big difference is a very well implemented rear wheel steering set up on the GT that is not available on the E. It is likely that the Taycan implementation is also very effective.
For those that don't care about ring times when buying cars, there are many of us who are focused on those times. Those times are an excellent indicator of the overall level of driving performance available in a vehicle as the ring tests acceleration, braking, steady state and dynamic cornering. This metric has always been of interest to me as has the Car & Driver Lightning Lap results. To this end, it has been a few years, but the Model S could not complete a 3 minute lap in the Lightning Lap test without going into serious limp mode. Thus, while the Model S may be a great highway cruiser, it is not in the ranks of high performance cars when it comes to sustained acceleration and braking. Similarly, unless Tesla has made major changes to the Model S, it is unlikely to make a single ring pass without thermal throttling.
The Model 3 seems to handle heat and abuse significantly better as demonstrated by its recent victory over the BMW M3 in a 1 lap test. However, several owners have taken their cars to various tracks and have experienced significant brake fade under sustained lapping. Thus, the Model 3 may well struggle on the ring with stock brakes.
All of this is the long way of saying that while I think both the Models S and 3 are excellent cars that perform their purposes very well, they are not designed to compete with the top of the line Taycan and likely will not be competitive with it in key areas like sustained track performance. I am happy to see greater diversity in the EV world and I continue to be puzzled by the attitudes of folks here who seem to think this is a zero sum game and that Tesla can only be successful if Porsche fails.
Porsche has always sold cars at a premium. From a purely technical perspective, recent vintage Corvettes can match or even exceed the performance of 911s at a fraction of the price. However, other elements set them apart including reliability, overall quality, comfort, customer service, etc. There are significant numbers of people who value these things sufficiently to pay the Porsche premium over a Corvette and there are likely EV customers who will pay that same premium over Tesla.
For those that don't care about ring times when buying cars, there are many of us who are focused on those times. Those times are an excellent indicator of the overall level of driving performance available in a vehicle as the ring tests acceleration, braking, steady state and dynamic cornering. This metric has always been of interest to me as has the Car & Driver Lightning Lap results. To this end, it has been a few years, but the Model S could not complete a 3 minute lap in the Lightning Lap test without going into serious limp mode. Thus, while the Model S may be a great highway cruiser, it is not in the ranks of high performance cars when it comes to sustained acceleration and braking. Similarly, unless Tesla has made major changes to the Model S, it is unlikely to make a single ring pass without thermal throttling.
The Model 3 seems to handle heat and abuse significantly better as demonstrated by its recent victory over the BMW M3 in a 1 lap test. However, several owners have taken their cars to various tracks and have experienced significant brake fade under sustained lapping. Thus, the Model 3 may well struggle on the ring with stock brakes.
All of this is the long way of saying that while I think both the Models S and 3 are excellent cars that perform their purposes very well, they are not designed to compete with the top of the line Taycan and likely will not be competitive with it in key areas like sustained track performance. I am happy to see greater diversity in the EV world and I continue to be puzzled by the attitudes of folks here who seem to think this is a zero sum game and that Tesla can only be successful if Porsche fails.
Porsche has always sold cars at a premium. From a purely technical perspective, recent vintage Corvettes can match or even exceed the performance of 911s at a fraction of the price. However, other elements set them apart including reliability, overall quality, comfort, customer service, etc. There are significant numbers of people who value these things sufficiently to pay the Porsche premium over a Corvette and there are likely EV customers who will pay that same premium over Tesla.
Well, Porsche has a >100 year head start in EV tech so they better outperform Tesla with the Taycan!!!
Porsche P1 - Wikipedia
Porsche P1 - Wikipedia
Eno Deb
Active Member
PorSche has over 30,000 orders on the books and has already announced they will increases production from 20k to 40k a year. Porsche is low volume and this could make the Taycan one of its best selling cars.
2018 Panamera 38k, 911 36k
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Eno Deb
Active Member
Not sure why you keep bringing up the E-tron. It has nothing in common with the Porsche. Different platform (modified ICE design vs. clean-slate EV design), different motor types (asynchronous vs. permanent synchronous), 400V vs. 800V, single gear vs. two gear, entirely different suspension, rear-axle steering etc. pp. Oh, and one is a boxy SUV and the other a sleek sedan with coupe proportions.
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