The cynical take for his current stand is that this helps the competition more than Tesla given that Tesla is already backlogged with orders and this will result in customers going to other manufacturers for a quicker turnaround with purchasing a car. Same with EV charging infrastructure where Tesla has a huge lead and would prefer to maintain it.
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Tesla EV Tax Credits coming back?
- Thread starter hnguy054
- Start date
NoxGrimstad
Member
Cynical....but probably correct, if you cut to the heart of it.
The irony here is that after benefiting from green energy tax credits, which is a legislative backed transference of wealth from other companies into Tesla's pocket, allowing them to bootstrap and push forward, now suddenly he wants little / no government involvement. Tesla also benefited from solar incentives, administered by the US government (and perhaps elsewhere, I haven't looked into it). Elon is quite the hypocrite, and well known for making silly hyperbolic and even inappropriate statements. Too bad his handler(s) doesn't take the Twitter away from him, we'd all be better off without this autist running his mouth unchecked.
The Manchin vote will be key, and there are plenty of other contentious aspects of the bill that could be tweaked, leaving some / all of the EV incentives intact.
The bill is 2,465 pages long...51 of those are for EV tax credits.
The BBB will not help transitioning to all EVs from ICE cars any faster. Average income for the US in 2019 was $31k, and average people cannot afford any EV that can provide same level of range and cost as their ICE counterparts. Also, electricity is getting more and more expensive as well as all other things in this country, so EVs are not really attractive to people who make the average income or less.
By giving free money to people might look like will solve a few things now, but it will backfire and create more serious problems in near future.
Elon and Tesla do not need the tax credit and certainly did not need the tax credit to become the leader of EV now. People buy Tesla cars for mainly its technology, innovation, and performance even with its QC issues. People will not buy other brand/manufacture cars just because they have to wait long time to get the Tesla cars.
By giving free money to people might look like will solve a few things now, but it will backfire and create more serious problems in near future.
Elon and Tesla do not need the tax credit and certainly did not need the tax credit to become the leader of EV now. People buy Tesla cars for mainly its technology, innovation, and performance even with its QC issues. People will not buy other brand/manufacture cars just because they have to wait long time to get the Tesla cars.
I argue BEV aren't even practical for 75% of the population. BEV are terrible in cold weather, the DC charging infrastructure can't handle even tripling the number of EVs on the road and the sales are pathetic compared to ICE, BEV are 1.5x more expense than comparable ICE cars, and folks living in condos/apartments often don't have access to L2 charging. The US simply can't go "all Norway" and push for mass EV adoption.
I argue we need to move to PHEV (plugin not just hybrid) as the next step. That will give time to build out L2s everywhere.
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
The issue I take with it is it’s not directed at those who actually need help buying an EV.
I’d sooner hand out $15K vouchers in exchange for a clunker to lower income buyers than $7-8K tax credits amongst what amounts to my own neighbors, who can afford these cars no issue.
The aim of the subsidy shouldn't be to distort the shape of the market, it should be to help it scale by shifting the price.
NoxGrimstad
Member
That's fair. I suppose the price and income caps are supposed to help that, but realistically a 400k income cap doesn't change much. I guess it's a bit of a "rising tide lifts all boats" approach to the issue. I'm not sure what a better approach is. Maybe lowering the price cap would do the trick to try to drive development of lower-cost models. From what I understand, means-testing programs generally doesn't result in an overall benefit, so I can appreciate the current approach even though I do see the warts.
You're both saying the same thing IMO.
Pushing the max AGI and MSRP caps down will shift the average price of BEV's downward by creating demand and a market for them for buyers that otherwise wouldn't go BEV.
Suggesting that most government programs aren't aimed at distorting markets is a bit delusional.
It's certainly not a perfect bill, including the EV elements. But I'll offer to hold anyone's beer while they excavate and produce the perfect piece of legislation. It's not how our government works, progress comes in lumpy, uneven, messy fits and starts.
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
Volume will generate lower cost models. Volume will increase research and drive down the cost of batteries and therefore enable cheaper vehicles.
Manufacturers react to profit and sales growth don't try to destroy their incentives.
Manufacturers react to profit and sales growth don't try to destroy their incentives.
Agreed and Correct. It is about getting all ICE cars off the road whether they cost $500 or $500,000. End of the day they want more EV's and less ICE. You get that by incentivizing ANY EV purchase. Those same neighbor that can "afford" their Tesla AREN"T buying enough EV's in the mind of the "global warmers".
noah82
Member
Elon Musk calls for Senate not to pass the Build Back Better Act: 'Tesla doesn't need the $7,500'
Elon Musk calls for the Senate not to pass the $2 trillion Build Back Better Act and says Tesla doesn’t...
electrek.co
Does anybody else think that Elon is trying to use some reverse psychology here? He knows that he is hated by our government and by telling them not to do it....
The purpose of BBB is to get replace pollution causing ICE vehicles with EVs. Does not intend to benefit poor people who mostly buy used cars anyways. Should not matter how much a person makes, just that they are replacing a gasser with an EV. Should also not matter if the car was built by Union labor, as long as it is produced in USA to employ US workers.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
I agree... the passage of BBB is now highly unlikely before the end of the year and a long shot for next year. Thank Goodness.
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If that were true, then how do you explain the outcomes of the current EV incentives? Has the average price of BEV's in the US gone up or gone down? Has Detroit been able to produce an affordable, reliable, attractive BEV, with those incentives? $7500 per vehicle should have put a lot of "butts in cars", but it actually hasn't for them. They had the competence to build, the dealer and advertising network to promote and deliver, the service bays to address issues, so why haven't they delivered?
The one manufacturer that doesn't qualify for those incentives anymore has still managed to take the lions share of the market and continues to raise prices. Tesla are not competing for Civics/Accords/Camry buyers, they're going upmarket, and the average income levels of their buyer demographics bears that out. They have a huge headstart in material science, in technology, and didn't sit around making compliance cars with their thumbs up their collective backsides for the past decade, like the encumbents.
So this fictional narrative about "volume generates lower cost models" is bollocks in this instance, and could use a kickstart by good old mommy government. We tip the scales all the time on market forces, Tesla already has great tailwinds at their backs. Let's put some wind behind others, maybe it'll even push Tesla to finally get serious about producing lower cost models.
Going back to some of the original counter proposals to the current BBB:
Lower the AGI for qualification, lower the MSRP of the vehicle.
While I appreciate alternate perspectives here, they don't pass the logic and reality test IMHO. With that, I'll relinquish the mic and let the rest of y'all parley over what is surely NOT one of lifes biggest existential crisis ;-)
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
For what it's worth, I have a Tesla and a 2nd one on order. Why? The incentive was enough for me to make the jump to a Pacifica PHEV (with the rebate, it was a hair cheaper than the ICE). That vehicle helped me appreciate the benefits of electric from the consumer perspective.
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