Tesla/J1772 adapter available from Tesla's website

[S-2000 Roadster]

I don't really understand why they didn't just leave the existing HPC's alone and work to have new J1772 systems mounted alongside... that would have been a lot more useful and a lot less confusing in my opinion

Agreed! It's already so pitiful to see one solitary charging station sitting in a lot. A least a pair of them, side by side, one of each kind, would look a bit more impressive.

 

[NigelM]

The logic employed by thieves is questionable at best, and you probably should be careful trying to rationalize what they might and might not do based on your own perspective as a productive member of society. I've had my car stolen and they took $5 headlight bulbs that probably weren't worth the time it took them to cut the wiring harness and unscrew the bulbs. I've also had a $400 car stereo stolen, but the catch is that they only get $20 for a hot stereo. The remaining $380 is simply lost. It might seem silly to steal a $750 charger for $3 of copper, but if they can unload it for $5 to $20 then they'd surely take it. Maybe inflation has thieves being more picky, but I bet the economic downturn has probably reversed any effect that inflation may have had.

Here's some security answers.

 

[Mycroft]

The logic employed by thieves is questionable at best

Absolutely! My Goldwing was parked in an underground parking garage, 50ft from the attendant booth and a thief cut the strap to steal my helmet off the back. Afaik, you can't replace the strap on a motorcycle helmet, so the thief basically destroyed $500 of value. Locally, they're stealing the wiring from old fashioned street lights. How much money can you get for a few feet of copper wiring? Geesh.

 

[TEG]

There's an expression in the electronics world known as 'bricking.' If anything goes wrong during a firmware upgrade, the CPU is effectively lobotomized...

I have encountered many systems that have a "roll back if upgrade failed" mechanism. Too many systems just overwrite the one firmware area and hope/assume that the new image will function (or else.) But a safer system writes each new firmware update into an alternate "partition" and if it fails it just reverts back to the previous (working) image.

TiVo does this with their boot images on their hard drives too. They can automatically get a new boot image overnight, and it always spools into the inactive partition, then swaps to reboot off of the new image once everything checks out.

 

[dpeilow]

Here's a Roadster charging in the UK (on the Ecorally) totally ignoring the J1772s because we can't get the adapter!

 

[ChadS]

Assuming that you can reproduce your problem on demand at a specific charging station, then ask Tesla Motors to send an engineer (not just a Ranger) to meet you there to diagnose the problem.

It happens every time. I offered to do that weeks ago; no response. I finally got them agree to take the car in today though; and it sounds like this is what they are going to do without me.

Did Tesla Motors indicate whether anyone else has had this problem, or is it just your car?

About the only thing they have told me is that other people don't have the problem; that was part of their justification for not looking at it yet. They also noted they were very busy with cars that don't run at all. Yikes; that's no way to placate a customer. I canceled the Model S reservation. I'm willing to try an all-new car from a new company if I can get good service; but if I have to fight to get service at all, no thanks.

 

[TEG]

I finally got them agree to take the car in today though...

Hmm... I wonder if your comments here might have persuaded them.

I canceled the Model S reservation.

Ouch!

 

[dsm363]

ChadS: Sorry to hear you had to cancel your Model S reservation. I've been pretty happy with Tesla Service so far but I understand they weren't able to take care of your car in a timely matter. Hopefully they get it worked out and you get back in line for a Model S at some point.

Had you called your sales person contact during this whole process as well?

 

[ChadS]

ChadS: Sorry to hear you had to cancel your Model S reservation. I've been pretty happy with Tesla Service so far but I understand they weren't able to take care of your car in a timely matter. Hopefully they get it worked out and you get back in line for a Model S at some point.

Thanks. But to be clear, fixing the current problem with my Roadster isn't going to get me to buy another Tesla. They have to change how they do service, so I know that I can get service when I need it.

I'm a very patient and understanding guy, I have a tech background and understand early product issues, I've founded and worked in startups and understand financial pressures, and I've been a HUGE Tesla proponent (over and above being a huge EV proponent). I have a bunch of small niggly little issues that I have never even mentioned to service just because I know they're busy. To make me mad, they have to really screw up.

I don't think it's the individuals I'm talking to. They're doing what they can with the time they have; and they should prioritize cars that don't run over mine. But management isn't putting enough employees in service if all they can handle is cars that don't run at all. Customers don't want to hear about employees too busy to look at their problems (when they hear anything at all); they want their problems fixed.

I think (this is obviously speculation) that management just considers service to be a pure cost. They don't seem to see that it's their main contact with customers (who are their best salespeople!), and something they need to invest in to keep the relationship strong. It can also be a source of income if they offer the right upgrades and add-ons.

Had you called your sales person contact during this whole process as well?

I did at the beginning. But most of the time I was talking to my customer advocate and local service manager.

 

[ChadS]

Good news: my car and J1772 adapter are now working with Coulomb stations.

The problem was a very tiny amount of current leakage over the ground wire. Other EVSEs didn't care, but the Coulombs called it a GFI problem and shut it down. Coulomb and Tesla worked together to investigate this, so now they both know what the issue is. I got a new PEM, and no longer have the leak.

Tesla explained that part of the reason it took so long is that they didn't want to just slap in a PEM to work around the problem; they wanted to investigate it and make sure they understood it in case it came up again elsewhere. I'm very supportive of that and would have been happy to work with them if they had asked.

But I'm still not supportive of it taking 5 weeks and me forcing the issue for them to look at it; and them not communicating with me in the interim. That was my only issue, but it's a significant one. I can pick up my car tomorrow, and then I'm leaving on my trip the next morning. Hooray, I can use the very convenient hotel with the Coulomb charger! D'oh...no, wait, I can't. It's fully booked now. Grr...

 

[S-2000 Roadster]

I'm still not supportive of it taking 5 weeks and me forcing the issue for them to look at it; and them not communicating with me in the interim. That was my only issue, but it's a significant one. I can pick up my car tomorrow, and then I'm leaving on my trip the next morning. Hooray, I can use the very convenient hotel with the Coulomb charger! D'oh...no, wait, I can't. It's fully booked now. Grr...

In my opinion, this was not a Service issue. I don't think it's fair to expect the Tesla Roadster to work with a third-party (Coloumb) charging station that has been modified to support the J1772 standard, just because you have a J1772 adapter. This is all very new technology. Your Roadster surely has always worked with every Tesla Motors branded HPC, UMC, SMC, and whatever that other charging adapter was called. Coloumb tried to make an HPC, then changed their mind and modified it for J1772. I'm not surprised that there are issues that take a long time to solve.

I see this as a design shortcoming - one that is natural in a brand new technology arena. You're talking about bringing three separate bodies together and expecting them to work (Tesla Motors, government J1772 standards, Coloumb electronics). Design changes take time to fix. They're not just something that a Service Tech can look up in their Service Manual along with an estimate of the number of hours that it will take to repair - because it's never been done before. It's as if the gas pump were a new invention, and your Ford gas tank were too small for the nozzle. If something equivalent happened to an ICE vehicle, they'd have to design a new part for compatibility with third-party pumps.

As for Tesla Motors' business model for Service, I don't see how they can justify more than their staff of 3 people for the 50 roadsters in the area. Honda has multiple shifts of service techs working more than 8 hours a day. There are training facilities where service techs can become certified in Honda service, and there are several orders of magnitude more cars in the area to justify the staffing for continuous service. As it stands, the Seattle Tesla Store spends days with nothing for their service techs to do but wash the roadsters on the sales floor and wait for a problem. But normal statistics says that you'll get one guy racing his roadster on the track and breaking down the same day you decide that you need the Coloumb charger to work. I don't think that the market has reached the critical mass needed for fast-food-style service without waiting. Even the local Honda dealer cannot always get my car serviced before my trip out of town, and they have way more staff, larger facilities, etc.

 

[ChadS]

I don't think it's fair to expect the Tesla Roadster to work with a third-party (Coloumb) charging station that has been modified to support the J1772 standard, just because you have a J1772 adapter.

You are mistaken; the Coulomb units have not been modified. They were J1772 from the start. Tesla and Coulomb tested them, and they worked together. Coulomb is by far the most common public J1772 station out there. My $750 cable didn't do me a ton of good if it didn't work with them. This wasn't an untested protocol issue between Tesla and a brand-new oddity; this was my Roadster not working like other Roadsters.

As for Tesla Motors' business model for Service, I don't see how they can justify more than their staff of 3 people for the 50 roadsters in the area.

They only have two service people here, and they support more Roadsters than that--I haven't heard of them having any free time in a year and a half. I don't know how many people my customer advocate has. But both were too busy to tell me more than "I'll talk to engineering and get back to you" for 5 weeks--I'm not talking about a 3-day delay during a sudden rush. Tesla can justify more people because it's very costly to lose customers that can't get their problems looked at and don't get any status information.

 

[qwk]

Tesla can justify more people because it's very costly to lose customers that can't get their problems looked at and don't get any status information.

5 weeks is nothing for a complicated one off problem. I'm not standing up for Tesla here at all, but if you have a rare electrical problem in an ICE car, most shops won't even be able to fix it, let alone in the same week. Been there done that.

 

[S-2000 Roadster]

What I recall is that the Coulomb chargers were originally designed with the Tesla plug on the end, then they were converted to the J1772 plug. Some of these conversions were apparently done in the field after installation and deployment. I must admit that I have never seen one; I'm just going by what I heard. Right or wrong, they're still a third-party charger.

The Seattle Tesla Store has 3 service employees, 1 salesman, and 1 associate plus 1 offsite manager - that's not an official count, just the ones I've seen on a given day. All 3 service employees worked on my car yesterday for a minor repair. They've always had 3 in service, although there was a brief period last month where they only had 2.

When my car was new, I came in every day with questions and nits to pick. I saw the service staff twiddling their thumbs, and I was even told that they had nothing to do and wanted me to come in for any reason. You (Chad) mentioned that you had tons of problems and never complained about any of them, but my impression is that you could have had them all fixed by now. Granted, I can bring in my laptop and get my work done while hanging out at the Tesla Store, and maybe you can't take time away from work, but that's the same story with a ICE service department.

I totally understand that you're unhappy, and there really should have been someone at Tesla Motors who was responsible for tracking your problem and following through with you. I'm just trying to make sure that the objective facts are straight.

P.S. I also want to point out that Tesla Motors could have handled this like other companies would, and simply told you that charging from a non-Tesla brand charger is not supported.

 

[dsm363]

I'm glad they finally got this fixed for you.
I agree with S-2000 Roadster. I think they got that fixed fairly quickly considering the problem but I understand your frustration. It seems like it was more of the lack of communication that bothered you the most. I think it's a growing company and has issues in this department. Just look at their blog post in early May about Franz answering design related questions. They promised answers would be posted 'at the end of the month' but then nothing. June came and went without an update. Not even a 'sorry guys, it's taking us longer than we thought but we'll post it soon'. They finally got around to it in late July. They need to under-promise and over deliver at this point I think.

 

[qwk]

I think it's a growing company and has issues in this department. Just look at their blog post in early May about Franz answering design related questions. They promised answers would be posted 'at the end of the month' but then nothing. June came and went without an update. Not even a 'sorry guys, it's taking us longer than we thought but we'll post it soon'. They finally got around to it in late July. They need to under-promise and over deliver at this point I think.

Yes, this along with their spam infestation on the website forums makes them look rather amateurish.

 

[TEG]

What I recall is that the Coulomb chargers were originally designed with the Tesla plug on the end, then they were converted to the J1772 plug. Some of these conversions were apparently done in the field after installation and deployment. I must admit that I have never seen one; I'm just going by what I heard. Right or wrong, they're still a third-party charger...

I think you are mixing up the Clipper Creek units (sold as Tesla HPCs) that got changed to J1772. The Coulomb units have always been J1772.

Note, Clipper Creek goes way back. You can find similar units (originally under the EVI brand) that have Avcon ends, some with Tesla ends, and now many with J1772.
Aside from an issue with Clipper Creek units set for 75A, I think the Roadsters have played nice with them regardless which plug or adapters were used.

The Coulomb units were a different story, and I don't think they were tested with Roadsters until Tomsax started, and Tesla finally released their adapter cable.


Coulomb Chargepoint:

Tesla HPC:

Clipper Creek J1772:

Legacy EVI Avcon:

 

[ChadS]

What I recall is that the Coulomb chargers were originally designed with the Tesla plug on the end, then they were converted to the J1772 plug.

Again: you recall incorrectly.

I'm just trying to make sure that the objective facts are straight.

Worthy goal, but I don't see any facts you've corrected. If you're happy with Tesla's service, I'm OK with that, buy all of 'em you want. I'm not trying to convince anybody else, just reporting my experience. (Initially I was asking for help, because I wasn't getting it from Tesla).

P.S. I also want to point out that Tesla Motors could have handled this like other companies would, and simply told you that charging from a non-Tesla brand charger is not supported.

That was their story when J1772 came out after the car did, and it made sense then. Now that they have sold me a $750 J1772 adapter, that is no longer the case. They support non-Tesla chargers. They tested non-Tesla chargers. This has nothing to do with Coulomb being something weird that Tesla doesn't know about. This was about my car not operating like other Teslas, and Tesla not looking at it.

If it had been the reverse situation--if only a single Coulomb didn't work, but it didn't work with any Tesla--I would have expected Coulomb to look at it. They can't say they don't work with Tesla's (unless they investigate and find Tesla is doing something wrong; but they have to investigate); being a standard supported by multiple manufacturers is the whole idea behind J1772. If you don't want to support the standard, don't sell J1772 equipment.

 

[TEG]

For what it is worth:

#1: The Nissan Leaf mobile EVSE wouldn't recharge a GM Volt. Something to do with the signal handshake timing. A 3rd party can retrofit them to make them work now.
#2: I tried to charge my old RangerEV with a Nissan Leaf mobile charger, by way of a J1772 to Avcon adapter, and burnt out the charger in the RangerEV (eek!). Apparently the RangerEV can only work properly with 240V, and doesn't spin the cooling fans if it ever gets 120V.

These anecdotes are just to point out that there is enough variation in the way the specs are interpreted, as well as corners being cut based on assumptions of how the other equipment will interoperable, that incompatibilities and "teething problems" are showing up in multiple ways right now.

 

[ChadS]

5 weeks is nothing for a complicated one off problem. I'm not standing up for Tesla here at all, but if you have a rare electrical problem in an ICE car, most shops won't even be able to fix it, let alone in the same week. Been there done that.

I have tried to be very careful to not say I expected a fix in a certain amount of time, but I know not everybody goes back and reads the whole thread in detail. I know some problems can take a long time to fix. My objection was to them not LOOKING at it to get an idea of what it might take, especially given that it likely had a very quick fix.

They could have swapped out the PEM in a few minutes--I'd be fixed, and they could look at the PEM at their leisure. Which is essentially what ended up happening...