-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Tesla promoting self-driving video was staged
- Thread starter Tam
- Start date
TresLA
Member
Just like then, what do you mean by “stage it now”? How was the 2016 demo video staged in any negative way? There doesn't seem to be any clear negative staging of that video (or the following one a month later).
TresLA
Member
Which part/feature? FSD Capability is the same: a future (i.e. - not yet available) software product or complete feature set that qualifies your existing car’s hardware for all intents and purposes as an autonomous vehicle. This is called FSD and is still being sold (locked in pricing) as a future product.
If you’re asking what features sold today are different, then there’s a lot being sold now that didn’t exist in Oct 2016: smart summon (disclaimer disclaimer again yadda yadda), NoAP (auto lane change, human-supervised entrance ramp to exit ramp freeway driving, sentry mode, various games and Easter eggs (light show, voice changer, live remote camera views), red light and stop sign controls, added visualizations and object recognition (cones, pedestrians, dogs, cats, bicyclists, SUV, pickup trucks, semis, etc.), charging network improvements and new features, and I’m sure I’m missing others. Which brings another point I’ve been thinking about, we seem to easily get used to many of these features and therefore we forget 1) how no other cars have this or that feature and 2) it’s harder and harder to remember when Tesla brought certain features that I now take for granted and only really notice.think about when I’m driving another car.
Then there’s the feature set included in FSDb that‘s not sold, but is now available to the public for early access testing.
TresLA
Member
Edit: “2014 - earlier 2016 Model S” Before 2014, Model S didn’t have that forward facing hardware included.
Sorry, but if I were on the jury, and the fact could be proven that he was on his phone, would be a hands down win for Tesla.
Did anyone see the NYT article today that interviewed several Tesla drivers who were involved in various crashes? Several of them mentioned they were not paying attention to the road or were distracted...I'm not saying that a Tesla would never mess up, but the first consideration must be the attentiveness of the driver, and that applies to all vehicles on the road, not just driver-assist ones.
BitJam
Active Member
They said FSD works "in almost all circumstances." The only caveats were validation and regulation. This was not true then and still isn't true. They knew it didn't work because they had to fake the video (by not using the FSD software). They said it worked when they knew it didn't. I don't see any room for assumption or speculation.
We need to make Full Self-Driving work in order for it to be a compelling value proposition.
-- Elon Musk (summer of 2021)
They didn't use FSD software to drive the car! They were telling people the cars already drove themselves in most circumstances. They said the cars would drive themselves across the country in a year. They showed a video of a car driving itself with no disclaimer that the FSD software they were selling wasn't doing the driving.
A fake or staged video is created when you sell people X but show a video of Y doing what you falsely claim X can do (with no disclaimer about the switch). For example, Nikola created a fake video by towing a truck up a hill and then filming it coast down with the title “Nikola One Electric Semi Truck In Motion”. It's true the truck was in motion just like it's true the Tesla video used Tesla hardware. But in both cases the big thing that was strongly implied (the truck propelled by its own power, the Tesla driven with FSD software) was not true.
The government report did confirm with both the car and phone logs that Walter Huang was playing games on the iPhone and let the car drove him.
Thus, that's why there's a lawsuit for the jury to decide why Walter didn't drive the car but let the car drove itself?
Thus, why now we hear the official testimony of the 2016 demo video with the message at the beginning of the film:
“The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself.”
The jury will decide does that video encourage drivers to "not doing anything. "
Why not doing anything? Why not even driving the car?
Because the message says "The car is driving itself.”
Here’s part of an article describing the first autopilot death In 2016.
‘‘In its 537-word statement on the incident, the electric vehicle company repeatedly went out of its way to shift blame for the accident. The first paragraph notes that this was Tesla’s first known autopilot death in some 130 million miles driven by its customers. “Among all vehicles in the US, there is a fatality every 94 million miles,” the company then notes.”
So it was being used back then, and had been used by customers to drive 130 million miles thus far. Not technicians, customers. And back then it was touted as a product that made driving with autopilot safer than not using it. That was by no means a “future” product In 2016.
Dredging up disclaimers from old web pages does not allow one to claim it a then “future product”, it was being sold and used, just as it is today.
There’s a difference between delusion and optimism. I think he’s probably crystal clear in his mind as to the difficulty and time frame of development but saw a way to add an enormous amount to Tesla sales. I suspect it helped keep his company afloat during those lean times. I understand the motivation. I don’t agree with it but I do understand it.
Incidentally that accident report was and probably still is on line. There’s a lot there. It’s a real eye opener to see exactly what the car records and sends back to Tesla. And before you respond, know that I’ve visited the site of that accident, I’ve read the reports, I know the driving history of the involved trucker, I know the false claims he made about the video and the follow up investigation disproving those claims.
No, I’m not asking you what’s been added. It does no good to cloud the issue with smart summon, lane change improvements, etc. You made claims about the status in 2016 and I’m only pointing out what I see as errors in those claims. You are welcome to your opinions, as are we all, but factual information should be accurate.
TresLA
Member
Again, it was clear when the video was released (2016) that Tesla’s vehicles could not drive themselves yet. When we purchased our first in 2018, we didn’t think it would be anytime soon either. There’s also a pattern of many conflating statements and features later on with others from the past. The quote you include here (from 2021) is yet another example of how Tesla has always represented and marketed FSD as a product/software/feature-suite that didn’t yet exist. It’s hard to predict the future (timing) and Tesla is not alone in missing timelines. Tesla also isn’t the only carmaker to have claimed a future date for their vehicles to be autonomous and miss It (e.g. - Ford, GM, MobileEye, etc.) It’s also hard to predict the future when you see pretty amazing advancements (again, watching the 2016 videos are clearly worse performing than FSDb and NoAP now), but there’s so much more to go (the real world is more corner cases than obeyed blanket rules).
But again, they weren’t selling that “FSD software” yet. It was clear. No owner I knew then or know now thought/thinks they had an autonomous vehicle.
This isn’t the same as the Nikola One example. It’s interesting how people keep coming back to trying to tie them together. Should Waymo have put out marketing videos of drives that required interventions or rescuing stranded cars before they were selling the service? Should MobileEye not have posted the videos they did back in 2017 claiming they had an autonomous car? This video is still on their YouTube page and again I don’t see a problem with it:
TresLA
Member
Wait. You’re making the same mistake of conflating Autopilot (which they did have a form of back then for owners) and FSD (which they didn’t claim to have available for owners yet). This is what’s leading to a lot of the confusion. Perhaps one could argue Tesla hasn’t done a good enough job trying to prevent the confusion, but it‘s hard selling something that is so advanced compared to other car makers, but isn’t autonomous driving. I’ve mentioned in many comments before, I see this confusion and conflation is largely due to our lack of how to conceive what’s in between lane keep assist (which AP is more than) and autonomous vehicles (no steering wheel or pedals needed). Most people seem to just see AV is the next logical step with nothing in between. It can either keep the lane and follow the speed of traffic without my intervention, or the next step is it can drive me while I nap in the backseat.
TresLA
Member
TresLA
Member
I suspect we’re talking about two different things here. I’m talking about auto-steering , awareness of surroundings, traffic aware speed control, not phantom braking or doing other sudden dangerous moves, but primarily controlling the car while complying with traffic laws, speed limits, and avoiding collisions.
I think now that you are discussing are the more advanced parts of FSD, left turns across traffic, navigating construction areas, traffic circles, aspects of city driving, dropping passengers off then autonomously parking, etc.
Tesla has periodically redefined FSD through the years, it’s been a shifting sands type definition. I think of the safety and car control, collision avoidance, aspects as central to FSD, not really a separate product. The other parts of FSD come piecemeal, ability to take exits, left turns, lane changes, city driving, backing out of the garage, coping with merging traffic.
We’ve been told FSD would be similar to a taxi with no user supervision or interaction, and that remains vaporware and I think will remain vaporware for the foreseeable future. In fact that aspect appears to now be abandoned. We continue to see evolution of the more advanced aspects. Originally we were told the full package would be finished within the year. We’ve been told that each year since.
So I bought it with the promise it would be complete within a year. I was skeptical, of course. I was told my version of the car would be capable of all aspects of FSD in the future. So far I’ve got a computer upgrade and need a camera upgrade. There’s talk of a new radar unit with twice the resolution. I suspect LIDAR will be needed as well.
In 2017, we were promised the finished FSD package, and we’ve been promised it every year since. I don’t expect we’ll ever see the taxi package, not in my lifetime anyway, and if it does come I don’t think it will come from Tesla. We bought a Kia last year, it has traffic aware cruise control, lane centering, etc. GM products seem to offer hands free highway steering this year.
I don’t think we have an argument. I do think that video was meant to mislead. I understand if you think not.
I think now that you are discussing are the more advanced parts of FSD, left turns across traffic, navigating construction areas, traffic circles, aspects of city driving, dropping passengers off then autonomously parking, etc.
Tesla has periodically redefined FSD through the years, it’s been a shifting sands type definition. I think of the safety and car control, collision avoidance, aspects as central to FSD, not really a separate product. The other parts of FSD come piecemeal, ability to take exits, left turns, lane changes, city driving, backing out of the garage, coping with merging traffic.
We’ve been told FSD would be similar to a taxi with no user supervision or interaction, and that remains vaporware and I think will remain vaporware for the foreseeable future. In fact that aspect appears to now be abandoned. We continue to see evolution of the more advanced aspects. Originally we were told the full package would be finished within the year. We’ve been told that each year since.
So I bought it with the promise it would be complete within a year. I was skeptical, of course. I was told my version of the car would be capable of all aspects of FSD in the future. So far I’ve got a computer upgrade and need a camera upgrade. There’s talk of a new radar unit with twice the resolution. I suspect LIDAR will be needed as well.
In 2017, we were promised the finished FSD package, and we’ve been promised it every year since. I don’t expect we’ll ever see the taxi package, not in my lifetime anyway, and if it does come I don’t think it will come from Tesla. We bought a Kia last year, it has traffic aware cruise control, lane centering, etc. GM products seem to offer hands free highway steering this year.
I don’t think we have an argument. I do think that video was meant to mislead. I understand if you think not.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Mobileye should issue refunds to people who purchased that system.
Exactly!
I leased a 2016 Model S with FSD option because this video + statements from Elon misled me into thinking FSD was imminent. Needless to say, it was not delivered before my lease expired.
Similar threads
