Tesla recalls 2 million vehicles to limit use of Autopilot

[sublimejackman]

Roughly 18 hours after release and I haven’t received an update notification.

But I am under 5K miles in two years. I don’t know how Tesla is prioritizing this update but if it is to “heavy AP users” first then I am probably pretty far down on the list.

I've always wondered if there was a method to the release order of software updates. Like last night I was one of the first (and I really don't use AP all that often these days). Sometimes it takes a week or more. I know there are few tricks for forcing the car to recheck. But that doesn't seem to work consistantly.

I think it may be truly random (at least from our POV). Or since I have HW3 but no interior camera, the code was ready first

 

[Supcom]

Strange how the logic works here.

Some airplanes automatically engage autopilot if the pilot does something stupid or becomes incapacitated.

I would rather a Tesla do the same thing instead of disengaging and eventually suspending the feature.

I guarantee Autopilot drives more safely than many, if not most of the drivers who will face suspensions due to "improper use".

As previously stated, bad drivers are bad drivers. I wouldn't be surprised if data ultimately reveals that crashes increase if these drivers are suspended from using Autopilot.

If I became incapacitated while at the wheel of my car, I would be glad for AP to disengage and bring my car to a stop with the hazard lights on so that someone might call 911 and help will come to me. That would be better than for my car to keep driving down the road until the battery dies with no chance of assistance.

 

[Supcom]

I've always wondered if there was a method to the release order of software updates. Like last night I was one of the first (and I really don't use AP all that often these days). Sometimes it takes a week or more. I know there are few tricks for forcing the car to recheck. But that doesn't seem to work consistantly.

I think it may be truly random (at least from our POV). Or since I have HW3 but no interior camera, the code was ready first

Aside from some prioritized influencers and VIPs, the rollout order to ordinary users has always appeared to be random. If there is any other logic to it, it is not evident to us.

 

[BigNick]

If I became incapacitated while at the wheel of my car, I would be glad for AP to disengage and bring my car to a stop with the hazard lights on so that someone might call 911 and help will come to me. That would be better than for my car to keep driving down the road until the battery dies with no chance of assistance.

This would be useful: cabin camera detects incapacitated driver (eg slumped over wheel), engages AP to bring vehicle to a stop safely at the roadside (turning on hazard lights) and calls 911/999 to get paramedics dispatched.

Possibly even linking with bio scanning devices like smart watches/rings for heart attack detection if the user opts-in.

 

[gtae07]

Some airplanes automatically engage autopilot if the pilot does something stupid or becomes incapacitated.

Ah, not really.

There are a couple of airplanes with a "fly me to the nearest suitable airport and land" button, but that feature doesn't operate automatically. It's intended for a mostly-incapacitated pilot or a passenger to press.

Some large jet aircraft have an emergency descent mode that will turn off to the side and descend to low altitude if the cabin depressurizes and the autopilot is already engaged.

Many fly-by-wire aircraft incorporate "envelope protection" against excessive angle of attack or unusual attitudes.

But there is nothing out there with some monitor that automatically takes over for a stupid or incapacitated pilot.

 

[GSP]

Who needs that and why?

When driving in a road rally, the winner is determined by how close his odometer is to the correct value for the route. Without tenths, you could end up with more cars tied for the win.

Also, when doing the odometer correction for each car, they are driven for a short distance over a known distance. You absolutely need the tenths to determine the odometer correction factor accurately.

Odometer correction is also needed for range tests and efficiency tests of EVs. Bjørn Nyland has to use Scan my Tesla to get the odometer distance to the tenth of a km for his tests.

GSP

 

[sublimejackman]

This would be useful: cabin camera detects incapacitated driver (eg slumped over wheel), engages AP to bring vehicle to a stop safely at the roadside (turning on hazard lights) and calls 911/999 to get paramedics dispatched.

Possibly even linking with bio scanning devices like smart watches/rings for heart attack detection if the user opts-in.

This will never happen. And the reason is simple, it would require Tesla and (really) its current CEO to admit that true self driving is years and years away. "Coming later this year -autosteer on city streets-"

Remember "input is error". So no stalks for turn signals. Why? Cause why do we need a stalk for a computer. No physical wiper controls, touch screen to shift, etc..

They will never implement additional safety features for a human. The ones that exist now will improve but they will not add something new for a human driver.

They will never admit defeat.

(the only reason they are doing anything now, is because they legally have to. note how there are no tweets)

 

[AZbba]

If I became incapacitated while at the wheel of my car, I would be glad for AP to disengage and bring my car to a stop with the hazard lights on so that someone might call 911 and help will come to me. That would be better than for my car to keep driving down the road until the battery dies with no chance of assistance.

I don't think anyone is questioning the usefulness of nags. Current AP will do that, no?

This change is about punitively punishing drivers deemed "unsafe" by an already error-prone system in a real world environment, by removing features of their cars that they paid for. Hard pass

 

[FordMME]

You can even have the friction between knee and wheel serve as the de-nag. The trick also is to use only one hand and make sure the force is in the angular direction only, not pushing or pulling (there is no sensor for that). Then it's pretty light and easy.

The nags are greater at higher speed and when you aren't looking forward.

That's interesting. The nagging is dynamic? Like my ex-wife!

 

[MP3Mike]

This was with an upgraded 2017 Model S from MCU1/AP2.5 to MCU2/AP3. So no interior camera.

So it looks like for now they've only pushed out the suspension portion of the recall. Which I did not test

Or maybe you don't have all of the recall fixes yet. (The Tesla information page said they would start the recall fix for HW3/4 vehicles with the in-cabin camera.)

If you do a NHTSA search on your VIN does it show the recall is still outstanding?

 

[FordMME]

So is it confirmed that the next update will activate the cabin camera when using auto-pilot? I hated this feature when I had FSD trial. I would get warned when I'm searching for music or trying to adjust the cabin fan via the touch screen.

2023.44.30 Official Tesla Release Notes - Software Updates

Tesla software update 2023.44.30 (FSD Beta 11.4.9) includes Over-the-Air (OTA) Recall, Autopilot Suspension, FSD Beta 11.4.9, Cabin Camera, Alternate Routes While Driving, Custom Lock Sounds, Park Assist Upgrade, Castle Doombad Game, Play Games on Rear Screen, Apple Podcasts, Rear Passenger...

www.notateslaapp.com

That sounds like a safety feature working as intended...

 

[FordMME]

After reading all 23 pages of this thread with interest, here are a few takeaways from a Tesla outsider:

You guys (and maybe a few gals?) who dropped $12k on "Full Self Driving" are interesting. I get the cool factor, I really do, but that is a lot of cheddar for something that requires you to have a hand on the wheel. Keeping a hand on the wheel, by the way, while somebody else (the car) turns the wheel. That's weird, man.

A whole lot of complaining about how Tesla is being unfairly picked on (maybe, probably), and how AP is still safer than non-AP. That's all really beside the point. The point is that, even with these wonderful driver assistance technologies, they are still "Level 2" and still require a driver's complete attention and control.

The solution, then, is for Tesla to be more stringent about driver attention and control. A system that only nagged you every 30-45 seconds if it doesn't detect a hand on the wheel, and didn't otherwise verify driver attention, was never going to pass muster forever. That's ridiculous. That absolutely needs to be tightened up. Many here have suggested that FSD beta will be exempt from the new recall requirements... why?!

Basically, and I know you guys probably don't want to hear this, Tesla needs to take a page from the much more conservative Ford and GM systems. I get nagged if a hand isn't detected for more than 8 seconds. And in "hands free" mode, I get nagged if my eyes are not detected on the road for more than 3 or 4 seconds. Surely, Tesla has enough tech in the cabins that it can do the same.

But the flipside of my admittedly much more limited and conservative ADAS in the Mach E is that I can actually drive truly hands-free. And I hope the regulators don't come for me next! That's why I hope Tesla takes the heat and responsibly addresses the complaints!

 

[OxBrew]

Who needs that and why?

I do, for directions to places not well mapped, which are everywhere off the main roads.

And because the data is there, it makes no sense to not make the resettable odometer work like literally every car ever made.

 

[timk225]

Who needs that and why?

We need it because... we need it! That's why. Why NOT have it, when just about every other car ever made has it, and even Model S and X still have it, it is only the models 3 and Y that don't, with their different computers. And maybe I want to measure a certain distance and would like to have accuracy of better than a MILE either way.

I need to figure a way to get an email to the higher ups at Tesla engineering and get them into a Teams meeting on the computer and explain to them how this is wrong, makes no sense to not have it, and needs to be put back in. A tenths digit is not complicated, requires nearly no computer processing power, and the computer is already doing the distance calculations anyway.

It is 0.6 miles from my house to a certain intersection. Always has been, even for the first few years I had my Model 3. Now it has been 1 mile for almost 2 years because we don't have a tenths digit, and it displays that I have traveled 1 mile when I have gone 0.5 miles! Why does the NHTSA allow this inaccuracy? Maybe I should call them and ask about this.

 

[sublimejackman]

Or maybe you don't have all of the recall fixes yet. (The Tesla information page said they would start the recall fix for HW3/4 vehicles with the in-cabin camera.)

If you do a NHTSA search on your VIN does it show the recall is still outstanding?

Still showing as "unrepaired" but I would be surprised they had any system that updated within 12 hours.

Knowing the Fed Gov, importing data probably invloves an onerous CSV upload to a portal that a Tesla employee has to manually do. God help you if even one column has too many characters in it

The lack of an interior camera is what I'm thinking as well. Either the recall changes are more limited on cars without it. Or the suspension thing was always going to happen (like the single stalk press) and this update was not the recall for me...

Times like these I wish there some sort of way for large companies to relate to the public, like a person or team of people? Whose job it is to clear up confusion amongst the paying public. Too bad humans have never thought of an effective way to communicate other than twitter.

 

[Tha_Ape]

Strange how the logic works here.

Some airplanes automatically engage autopilot if the pilot does something stupid or becomes incapacitated.

I would rather a Tesla do the same thing instead of disengaging and eventually suspending the feature.

I guarantee Autopilot drives more safely than many, if not most of the drivers who will face suspensions due to "improper use".

As previously stated, bad drivers are bad drivers. I wouldn't be surprised if data ultimately reveals that crashes increase if these drivers are suspended from using Autopilot.

Airplanes have had autopilots for over a century. Also lot less things to hit in the air.

But from what I'm hearing so far, the update is exactly what the NHTSA remedy said it was and it doesn't seem to be intrusive (from the limited sample size of people who've gotten the update and reported on it).

 

[Dewg]

I do, for directions to places not well mapped, which are everywhere off the main roads.

And because the data is there, it makes no sense to not make the resettable odometer work like literally every car ever made.

Am I missing something here? I think you're referring to Trips and not odometer. You can't reset an odometer. If you bring up the menu and choose Trips, is that what you're referring to?

 

[AndrewZ]

If I became incapacitated while at the wheel of my car, I would be glad for AP to disengage and bring my car to a stop with the hazard lights on so that someone might call 911 and help will come to me. That would be better than for my car to keep driving down the road until the battery dies with no chance of assistance.

Disengaging and pulling over is what they'd call a "minimum-risk maneuver" in self-driving terminology and is something that needs to be built in for systems actually taking liability for the DDT -- not necessarily for an incapacitated driver but in the event that a sensor is damaged or an electrical fault or any number of problems that can occur and for which redundancies need to exist.

For example if you hit a deer in a self-driving car that has no steering wheel or pedals and it takes out cameras or other components, what does the car do? It would need to be able to pull over as safely as possible, throw on the hazards, etc.

They've definitely talked about systems like this monitoring driver health too and contacting local emergency services in the event of a medical emergency or accident, kinda like OnStar.


Also discussions about mandating driver intoxication detection

 

[FloridaJohn]

For example if you hit a deer in a self-driving car that has no steering wheel or pedals and it takes out cameras or other components, what does the car do? It would need to be able to pull over as safely as possible, throw on the hazards, etc.

In an L4 or L5 car, there is no requirement for anyone to even be in the car, so you have to think about the minimum safe requirements in that situation as well. The car hits a deer when there isn’t any one in the car, what does it need to do. It can’t rely on a human taking over.

 

[AndrewZ]

In an L4 or L5 car, there is no requirement for anyone to even be in the car, so you have to think about the minimum safe requirements in that situation as well. The car hits a deer when there isn’t any one in the car, what does it need to do. It can’t rely on a human taking over.

Exactly, and a hypothetical Level 5 car without a steering wheel or pedals — like the one Elon has been talking about making at Giga Mexico (yes that was a recent claim) — wouldn’t even have driver inputs.

One of the reasons I think it’ll never happen with cameras alone, or at least not the current camera suite