Tesla Rip Off- Full Self Driving

[Dutchie]

Yesterday morning I drove off and a couple of deer crossed the road. I stopped and about 15 meters to the right there were two mor. These two were a bit scared to and just waiting to see what is going to happen. I waited patiently for them to cross the road too,

There and then I started asking myself: How on earth could a computer handle a situation like that? The cameras would never have noticed the other deer. Let alone be patient for another living being.

 

[brkaus]

Interesting - if Tesla were to refund the FSD for a lease, then it would reduce the value of the car at the end of the lease since there was no future FSD remaining on the car.

Wouldn’t the leasing company be owed something for the reduced car value?

Or dies the individual get some value lower than the option cost for 3 years of non-existing FSD and the option remains enabled?

 

[croman]

Yesterday morning I drove off and a couple of deer crossed the road. I stopped and about 15 meters to the right there were two mor. These two were a bit scared to and just waiting to see what is going to happen. I waited patiently for them to cross the road too,

There and then I started asking myself: How on earth could a computer handle a situation like that? The cameras would never have noticed the other deer. Let alone be patient for another living being.

While I was in AP, my car slowed for deer that jumped from a ditch into the road. I got the brakes after it slowed but Cruise had footage of their cars recognizing a raccoon and stopping. It's just image recognition and AK is the best so that's not the hard part.

As far as intuition and care it's likely the AI will likely learn that one deer is usually accompanied by many and it has better reaction times than us.

 

[yo mama]

Yesterday morning I drove off and a couple of deer crossed the road. I stopped and about 15 meters to the right there were two mor. These two were a bit scared to and just waiting to see what is going to happen. I waited patiently for them to cross the road too,

There and then I started asking myself: How on earth could a computer handle a situation like that? The cameras would never have noticed the other deer. Let alone be patient for another living being.

Trick question! The AI would be American (and not Canadian, like you). Thus, the car would unlikely be polite enough to either stop or wait for the deer even if it did see them.

 

[59psi]

but Cruise had footage of their cars recognizing a raccoon and stopping.

Ahh Cruise... I interviewed with these guys. From what I saw of the cars in their garage... no two have the same hardware (in total), and from what they told me about how their software works every dev gets essentially his own car to write code for. So perhaps one Cruise car properly identified a raccoon a second may not, and it's up to humans to decide if that's a feature that makes it into production. It's then up to regulators to decide if that feature is safe, acceptable, etc.

I'm waiting for some personal issues to wrap up before making my purchase, however I think given what I'm seeing here (and agree with) I'll not opt for FSD and put that money into my private pilots license training instead.

 

[McRat]

Ahh Cruise... I interviewed with these guys. From what I saw of the cars in their garage... no two have the same hardware (in total), and from what they told me about how their software works every dev gets essentially his own car to write code for. So perhaps one Cruise car properly identified a raccoon a second may not, and it's up to humans to decide if that's a feature that makes it into production. It's then up to regulators to decide if that feature is safe, acceptable, etc.

I'm waiting for some personal issues to wrap up before making my purchase, however I think given what I'm seeing here (and agree with) I'll not opt for FSD and put that money into my private pilots license training instead.

Cruise is now with General Motors and is mass producing identical Cruise AVs on an assembly line for sale in 2019.

 

[smac]

Interesting - if Tesla were to refund the FSD for a lease, then it would reduce the value of the car at the end of the lease since there was no future FSD remaining on the car.

Wouldn’t the leasing company be owed something for the reduced car value?

Or dies the individual get some value lower than the option cost for 3 years of non-existing FSD and the option remains enabled?

As an example. If you ordered a new car on lease (any car this is not Tesla specific), it arrives and one of the optional extras that you had specified was missing due to an error. This extra couldn't be retrofitted, but after discussions you decided to take the car anyway.

The lease company would get the refund, not the person who took on the lease. The lease company then passes that back to the driver in the form of reduced monthly payments (possibly with a lump sum against prior payments, or a bigger reduction going forward if any payments had been prior to resolving the issue.).

Now the lease company would get the full option value back, but because these leases specify a future value based on the car and all it's options and it's the difference between the new price and this future value being financed, this would need to be updated to reverse out the effect of the option.

You can see this effect on the design studio, because FSD is $49 per month on the Tesla lease, which over a 36 month lease is only $1764, i.e. less than list price for the option.

 

[whitex]

Yesterday morning I drove off and a couple of deer crossed the road. I stopped and about 15 meters to the right there were two mor. These two were a bit scared to and just waiting to see what is going to happen. I waited patiently for them to cross the road too,

There and then I started asking myself: How on earth could a computer handle a situation like that? The cameras would never have noticed the other deer. Let alone be patient for another living being.

You don't even need to think that complicated. If you have a Tesla, you know what happens to the rear camera in the rain. Now imagine that happening to all other cameras but the tripple front windshield one (which has a wiper to keep it clean), do you really think even a supercomputer can drive all cameras covered in dirt and water?

This will go down the same way BSM using ultrasonic sensors did. Elon had a genius idea, why pay for radar if you can use parking sensors to detect a car in your blind spot? They even had a warning light in the side mirrors wired (was shown on service manual schematics) but never got implemented because they realized it simply doesn't work. Elon could have had some interns drive for a couple of days to disprove his theory on that one, but instead he sold it first, then once the software got written it didn't work (today it is completely inaccurate) but he won't admin he was wrong and put in a proven radar based BSM, instead he keeps going with new brainfarts and Teslas continue to not have blind spot monitoring (even Tesla took that feature description away from their website). Same will happen with FSD, eventually, some day, it will do self driving at about the same quality as blind spot monitoring is today - works half the time at best, you can never rely on it, it you do and there is an accident it's your fault, requires prestine clean sensors and ideal weather.

 

[deonb]

I'm waiting for some personal issues to wrap up before making my purchase, however I think given what I'm seeing here (and agree with) I'll not opt for FSD and put that money into my private pilots license training instead.

Might cover the sales tax on your PPL training...

 

[boonedocks]

Have any of you that pre-paid for FSD sold that car yet. I was wondering what the private sale & trade in values are like when selling a FSD optioned car. I haven’t been able to find anything that give you a $3,000 bump for having the option in the car.

In any case 3K seems reasonable since it would cost someone 4K after the fact. LOL

 

[Kruegmeister]

My Model S is on order with a June Delivery. I ordered the P100D with every option except the Rear Facing Trunk Seats.
My view on FSD was that I was paying for some level of Autonomy. As EAP gets better I'm gonna want that Feature. I personally have doubts that anyone is gonna get there as there are too many possibilities to program for, it's so dynamic that I don't think even Lidar fixes the situation. So I bought the Feature and fully expect them to fail on Level 5... I hope they prove me wrong.

Perhaps the $3000 is the Fee for any possible upgrades your car could need in the future to get there, perhaps it's a fee to help fund the software development team.

If they want to make something cool, I'd take a better Summon Feature where my car can go park itself. I'd be stoked just for the end of the FSD Video. Let me get out and have it go park. It can do that slow and Safe. Then i would want it to unpark and come get me. That would be fairly simple to deliver and would probably make a bunch of owners thrilled with ssomething Autonomous to show off.

 

[GatorGuy]

Yesterday morning I drove off and a couple of deer crossed the road. I stopped and about 15 meters to the right there were two mor. These two were a bit scared to and just waiting to see what is going to happen. I waited patiently for them to cross the road too,

There and then I started asking myself: How on earth could a computer handle a situation like that? The cameras would never have noticed the other deer. Let alone be patient for another living being.

My previous Audi had a FLIR camera with pedestrian and animal recognition. If either were in your path of travel it would give you increasing warnings and eventually emergency brake. However if either were not directly in your path such as on the side of the road, they would show up as yellow. But sometimes they would show up as red. Supposedly these were threats the car identified to continue into your line of travel.

So even in 2013, computers were already figuring this problem out. The computer has much better "vision" and thus was able to see the threat much sooner than me. The computer also has better reaction time than any human. However right now we're thinking that the human has better "anticipation". Maybe because we can watch those deer and anticipate their moves. But the computer can watch alot more than us. Our attention would be focused on those deer where the computer can keep 100% attention on the deer, on traffic in front of us, watch the other side of the road, watch behind us and make sure there are no oncoming traffic threats.

The computer can simply do more and do it much quicker. It probably can even "anticipate" things better than you think because all that means is you watch and react. And it does both of those better than humans.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

As a half-rate lawyer myself, I respectfully disagree.

You clearly have a bias on this issue, which is fine. Small claims court judges are typically consumer friendly and will not take kindly to these shenanigans by Tesla. Taking money for FSD was nothing but a pure money grab by Musk. Tesla deserves to get a black eye over this.

 

[yo mama]

You clearly have a bias on this issue, which is fine. Small claims court judges are typically consumer friendly and will not take kindly to these shenanigans by Tesla. Taking money for FSD was nothing but a pure money grab by Musk. Tesla deserves to get a black eye over this.

Then what's stopping y'all from doing exactly that? (Falsely) acusing me of bias isn't going to accomplish anything.

 

[SO16]

Then what's stopping y'all from doing exactly that? (Falsely) acusing me of bias isn't going to accomplish anything.

I’d be curious to know if anyone here has followed through on their threats. Unlikely.

 

[Zeromus-X]

You clearly have a bias on this issue, which is fine. Small claims court judges are typically consumer friendly and will not take kindly to these shenanigans by Tesla. Taking money for FSD was nothing but a pure money grab by Musk. Tesla deserves to get a black eye over this.

Not that Tesla called me and asked, but to me the perfect situation would be the option to sign up (and commit, non-refundable) for FSD at $3,000 when purchasing the vehicle, but not be billed for it until it was released. Once the car downloads the FSD upgrade, you receive a $3,000 bill in the mail from Tesla. If the car never downloads the upgrade (such as the situation where you end your lease prior to its release), you never get billed. Simple.

Adding one level of complication, when FSD is released, make it an optional install for anyone with less than 12 months on their lease.

There will always be someone who gets screwed on the cutoff mark, but those are one-off cases.

 

[DriverOne]

I suggest when you come to sell your car that you inquire to Tesla about a refund. They were able to do that for my extended warranty that I’d not used. I don’t know if they’ll agree to it, but asking is surely a simple step.

 

[whitex]

Not that Tesla called me and asked, but to me the perfect situation would be the option to sign up (and commit, non-refundable) for FSD at $3,000 when purchasing the vehicle, but not be billed for it until it was released. Once the car downloads the FSD upgrade, you receive a $3,000 bill in the mail from Tesla. If the car never downloads the upgrade (such as the situation where you end your lease prior to its release), you never get billed. Simple.

Adding one level of complication, when FSD is released, make it an optional install for anyone with less than 12 months on their lease.

There will always be someone who gets screwed on the cutoff mark, but those are one-off cases.

Completely impractical and ambiguous as to what is "FSD" update. If the Auto-steer wheel changes color, teal instead of blue, as the one and only feature distinguishing EAP and FSD, that could be a $3,000 bill according to your scheme, right? Unless of course you mean full functionality, so say we agree on a test case such ad you can summon a car from New York to L.A.

 

[Zeromus-X]

Completely impractical and ambiguous as to what is "FSD" update. If the Auto-steer wheel changes color, teal instead of blue, as the one and only feature distinguishing EAP and FSD, that could be a $3,000 bill according to your scheme, right? Unless of course you mean full functionality, so say we agree on a test case such ad you can summon a car from New York to L.A.

I mean, I feel like the website's description of "Full Self-Driving Capability" would be enough ... you know, since that's what people are paying for now.

"This doubles the number of active cameras from four to eight, enabling full self-driving in almost all circumstances, at what we believe will be a probability of safety at least twice as good as the average human driver. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver's seat. For Superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled, you will not even need to plug in your vehicle.

All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don't say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you."

How did you get "what if the wheel changes color" out of that?

 

[whitex]

How did you get "what if the wheel changes color" out of that?

Simple, you just said "FSD update" and since the website says it will roll out in stages, maybe stage one could be a special icon color. Stage 1000 could be everything promised on the website.