Tesla sales continue downwards trend in Europe

[Utumno]

A bit of a non sequitur but if and when we resolve the technical issues how do we resolve the moral ones.
e.g. You come around a corner and there is an idiot overtaking an HGV in your lane.
You have three choices
1) swerve right and hit the HGV head on
2) brake and have a head on with the overtaking car
3) swerve left and possibly hit one or more of the pedestrians on the pavement?


A human would probably not have time to think and would just react and might do any one of the 3 but if given time to think about it and come to a decision what would you do? and what should FSD do? What % chance of hitting a pedestrian would make it OK to mount the pavement?
Maybe there is a consensus answer to this one made up on the spur of the moment but there are plenty more of these.

My prediction is a "Me First" monthly addon subscription which for only an extra $20 skews the cars moral compass in your direction so it will mow down school children at a bus stop without a second thought if there is a 1% chance you might break a finger nail.

This again?

Several manufacturers are on record as stating that their autonomous agents will aim to prevent injury to driver and passenger as this is what the human driver would instinctively do.

If that means mowing down children at a bus stop, that’s what can be expected. Take a human-driven taxi instead; the outcome will likely be the same but the passenger will be able to place any moralistic blame in a human rather than a machine. The children will be just as dead, but perhaps the passenger will feel better about their choices?

 

[Billbrown1982]

As you say, a human could do anything. As more cars have Full Self Driving enabled, edge cases & stupidity reduce. It often takes two or more stupid actors to have a serious incident. When only one is human, risk reduces.

Trolley problem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

FSD can work faster than us, it can potentially

• Work out relative speeds, potential braking ability of each vehicle according to road, weight, type etc
• Work out relative damage models of each choice and whether head-on better than scrape (Titanic mode)
• Know if the Tesla has passengers and where are they - back - front - children, adults (bit of a stretch there - but given better internal camera, assuming all seats have suitably clever weight sensors - not just simple weight on/off ones)
• Prioritise vulnerable road users/children (even be a barrier between idiot and pedestrians)
• Teslas can already pre-deploy airbags before a crash and vary deployment according to person's height and weight
• De-prioritise "guilty party"

Obviously the only answer is, activate ski mode and fit through the gap. Jeez its like nobody even thinks Knightrider was real.

 

[MrBadger]

A bit of a non sequitur but if and when we resolve the technical issues how do we resolve the moral ones.
e.g. You come around a corner and there is an idiot overtaking an HGV in your lane.

CAV - but unfortunately Tesla are unlikely to join that party as it means cooperation with others. Many aspects of it, especially the connected part, are also further advanced than some might otherwise speculate.

 

[FastLaneJB]

CAV - but unfortunately Tesla are unlikely to join that party as it means cooperation with others. Many aspects of it, especially the connected part, are also further advanced than some might otherwise speculate.

Sooner or later you'd think it very likely that cars of all makes will have a standard to speak to other cars regardless of make. At that point they will be able to see around blind corners and know another car is coming, the speed it's going and so on. A car that's gone around the corner already could also tell a following car there's a parked car on a blind bend so slow down and take care. This is all a long way off but sure it'll happen eventually and will just further improve on what they can do.

As to the mowing school children down, most human's would have thought that far ahead. So if you see you are about to have a head on collision with another car you'll instinctively swerve, assuming you avoid that crash only then will you start to worry about school children bouncing off your bonnet. I mean it's rather morbid but just saying we'd not weigh up all the options, we'd just try to save ourselves first.

Hence a car trained on human data is going to do the same. The order of concern is:

1. Safety of my passengers
2. Minimising bodyshop costs for my owner
3. Saving other random folk

 

[Jason71]

Sooner or later you'd think it very likely that cars of all makes will have a standard to speak to other cars regardless of make. At that point they will be able to see around blind corners and know another car is coming, the speed it's going and so on. A car that's gone around the corner already could also tell a following car there's a parked car on a blind bend so slow down and take care. This is all a long way off but sure it'll happen eventually and will just further improve on what they can do.

As to the mowing school children down, most human's would have thought that far ahead. So if you see you are about to have a head on collision with another car you'll instinctively swerve, assuming you avoid that crash only then will you start to worry about school children bouncing off your bonnet. I mean it's rather morbid but just saying we'd not weigh up all the options, we'd just try to save ourselves first.

Hence a car trained on human data is going to do the same. The order of concern is:

1. Safety of my passengers
2. Minimising bodyshop costs for my owner
3. Saving other random folk

If RoboCop Taught us anything then...

1. Company CEO
2. What is going to to reflect best on Company
3. Safety of passengers
4. Minimising bodyshop costs for owner
5. Saving other random folk

 

[KennethS]

Sooner or later you'd think it very likely that cars of all makes will have a standard to speak to other cars regardless of make. At that point they will be able to see around blind corners and know another car is coming, the speed it's going and so on. A car that's gone around the corner already could also tell a following car there's a parked car on a blind bend so slow down and take care. This is all a long way off but sure it'll happen eventually and will just further improve on what they can do.

As to the mowing school children down, most human's would have thought that far ahead. So if you see you are about to have a head on collision with another car you'll instinctively swerve, assuming you avoid that crash only then will you start to worry about school children bouncing off your bonnet. I mean it's rather morbid but just saying we'd not weigh up all the options, we'd just try to save ourselves first.

Hence a car trained on human data is going to do the same. The order of concern is:

1. Safety of my passengers
2. Minimising bodyshop costs for my owner
3. Saving other random folk

I'd like to think I'd opt for 1, 3, 2. Hopefully I will never need to find out!

 

[FastLaneJB]

If RoboCop Taught us anything then...

1. Company CEO
2. What is going to to reflect best on Company
3. Safety of passengers
4. Minimising bodyshop costs for owner
5. Saving other random folk

Yes little did we know when watching that how true it really is. We all no doubt thought that CEO was an arse at the time but now we realise he's just a regular human, with the same priorities as most of us.

 

[roadcred]

with SCs opening up to the public, what is really an incentive to buy a Tesla?

What it has to offer, really, compared to others?
a tiny bit more range, efficiency? please. most people charge at home all the time and do not care about those.
FSD? Yeah, right.
better sound insulation and comfort?
Better price? Well, no, not really.

With so much choice these days, what is the incentive to buy the tesla?

Come on!
More superchargers everyone cheaper than those open to other EVs
No servicing my second EV needs a not inexpensive service to keep its warranty intact.
Repairs at home
A lot more range than 90% of the competition.
A pretty reliable vehicle
A fast car for those who want it
Much faster software - we are used to reading about the wipers and phantom braking, you should read what others say on other forums about the software of others.
The Tesla is a mid price car. Its competition is not BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porche, Jaguar.
Its competition is VW, Stelantis, Kia Polestar,Volvo etc -cars in the M3 and MY price brackets.
Absolutely no range anxiety.

 

[yessuz]

Come on!
More superchargers everyone cheaper than those open to other EVs

Yes, cheaper. But if user is like me who charges at best once a month, 50 kwh @10p difference (non tesla vs tesla) is whopping 5 gbp).
If alternative is let's say 100 a month difference (including insurance quotes).. you do the maths

No servicing my second EV needs a not inexpensive service to keep its warranty intact.

How much is that service? How long is warranty? My tesla warranty will expire 1 month after 1st 2 year service which is few hundred gbp.. do the maths as as above.

Repairs at home

Which is nice. But i'd rather have car which does not break or I do not have to have a ranger every 2 months because it rattles itself to death

A lot more range than 90% of the competition.

Yeah. My bladder is aligned with most of competition. Plus some new EVs have even better range

A pretty reliable vehicle

Would you like to see my service history? ))) 18 service appointments in 2 years and 4 months

A fast car for those who want it

Which comes at a cost of insurance and tyres

Much faster software - we are used to reading about the wipers and phantom braking, you should read what others say on other forums about the software of others.

I know about this. But others also have android auto, car play and other stuff. But tesla software is good. When it does not throw you off motorway

The Tesla is a mid price car. Its competition is not BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porche, Jaguar.

Its competition is VW, Stelantis, Kia

Yes. Tesla is 25k car with another 25 for battery, motor and software. Difference os that others manage to have non-ratling interior and somewhat reasonable noise insulation

Polestar,Volvo etc -cars in the M3 and MY price brackets.
Absolutely no range anxiety.

Yeah, never had one as well.

 

[roadcred]

Wow I am sorry you are having a crap experience but mine has been entirely different! If mine had been that unreliable I would have dumped it.

My experience is different.
I have had 3 Model 3's and 2 Model Y's.
I had one product recall on the first Model 3, I used to get Tesla to change my winter wheels on the Model 3's.
What has it been now? 5 years? No repair or service costs whatsoever.

On the first four I had negative depreciation, the changes have prevented any tyre or brake renewals and
frankly I have had no rattle problems despite a slightly firm suspension.
I was recently quoted £38k for my current Model Y because of its condition and mileage so depreciation is normal for this Model at £14k.

All other EVs currently carry the £25k battery penalty. You are not seriously suggesting you would revert to an ICE?

I am sure you will find that insurance is a similar cost for any other comparable £50k vehicle.

 

[yessuz]

Wow I am sorry you are having a crap experience but mine has been entirely different! If mine had been that unreliable I would have dumped it.

My experience is different.
I have had 3 Model 3's and 2 Model Y's.
I had one product recall on the first Model 3, I used to get Tesla to change my winter wheels on the Model 3's.
What has it been now? 5 years? No repair or service costs whatsoever.

On the first four I had negative depreciation, the changes have prevented any tyre or brake renewals and
frankly I have had no rattle problems despite a slightly firm suspension.
I was recently quoted £38k for my current Model Y because of its condition and mileage so depreciation is normal for this Model at £14k.

All other EVs currently carry the £25k battery penalty. You are not seriously suggesting you would revert to an ICE?

I am sure you will find that insurance is a similar cost for any other comparable £50k vehicle.

No, most definitely I will not go back to ICE that is a fact.

Although I love to drive my car, but some internal quality issues and poor noise insulation will lead me to look at other options, not Only tesla.

Tesla will be in the list nevertheless, bit I will check other options for sure.

Btw I cannot dump my car as credit balance 9n it is way above current market value.

Also I covered almost 50k miles since feb 2022

 

[pgkevet]

Different strokes. I find my S comfortable but wouldn't consider being cramped in a 3 or drive a fugly Y and I certainly wouldn't go stalkless. Nor does the Tesla service ethos suit me - back when I got my S it was superb. I'll probably run it into the ground and then it depends..if the current status quo existed at that time I'd go ICE and probably even go pickup truck. But then again I’m very rural and keep a second car as a spare just because of the problems of risking isolation and the cheaper 4x4 for lousy winter conditions rather than slide a car that's expensive to repair and only good for shallow puddles. Something basic that local garages can keep functional has benefits here.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Different strokes. I find my S comfortable but wouldn't consider being cramped in a 3 or drive a fugly Y and I certainly wouldn't go stalkless. Nor does the Tesla service ethos suit me - back when I got my S it was superb. I'll probably run it into the ground and then it depends..if the current status quo existed at that time I'd go ICE and probably even go pickup truck. But then again I’m very rural and keep a second car as a spare just because of the problems of risking isolation and the cheaper 4x4 for lousy winter conditions rather than slide a car that's expensive to repair and only good for shallow puddles. Something basic that local garages can keep functional has benefits here.

I've had a lot a good few big cars, over 5 metres in length but to say a 3 is cramped is maybe a bit of a stretch. It's still a reasonably large car and can easily fit 6 foot adults behind 6 foot tall driver.

Only reason I had larger cars in the past is I wanted high end ones and sadly the more upmarket you go the larger the car tends to get. I don't know how many people might buy it but I'd love a company to make a 3 / Y sized car but with all the bells and whistles of their bigger cars. Sadly more bells = bigger footprint car.

 

[pdk42]

Only reason I had larger cars in the past is I wanted high end ones and sadly the more upmarket you go the larger the car tends to get. I don't know how many people might buy it but I'd love a company to make a 3 / Y sized car but with all the bells and whistles of their bigger cars. Sadly more bells = bigger footprint car.

An Audi RS4, RS6, or a BMW M3/M5 would get you close. Or even a Porsche 911 Turbo S. Loads of kit on all them.

 

[FastLaneJB]

An Audi RS4, RS6, or a BMW M3/M5 would get you close. Or even a Porsche 911 Turbo S. Loads of kit on all them.

Yes and no. I’ve had a M5 in the past and a lovely car. But say you want air suspension and even more luxury, had to move to an M760Li to get it. Also faster than the M5 at the time.

I’d like a Model 3 and Y with Tesla’s air suspension, Plaid drivetrain and 100kWh battery. I think they could make it but they don’t because they reserve it for the S / X thats also bigger. Oh and not available in RHD.

I’ll keep an eye on the new Porsche Macan as seems that isn’t too big but can have air suspension, rear wheel steering, large battery, plenty of power, etc. Basically you aren’t giving up much while still having a car that can park reasonably well in the UK.

 

[Utumno]

Yes and no. I’ve had a M5 in the past and a lovely car. But say you want air suspension and even more luxury, had to move to an M760Li to get it. Also faster than the M5 at the time.

I’d like a Model 3 and Y with Tesla’s air suspension, Plaid drivetrain and 100kWh battery. I think they could make it but they don’t because they reserve it for the S / X thats also bigger. Oh and not available in RHD.

I’ll keep an eye on the new Porsche Macan as seems that isn’t too big but can have air suspension, rear wheel steering, large battery, plenty of power, etc. Basically you aren’t giving up much while still having a car that can park reasonably well in the UK.

What you're giving up there with the Porsche is about £100k...

I mean fair enough, but it's not even vaguely in the same market as a Model Y!

 

[FastLaneJB]

What you're giving up there with the Porsche is about £100k...

I mean fair enough, but it's not even vaguely in the same market as a Model Y!

I never said it was in the same price range. My point was you want more features you have to have a bigger car. I fully expect if I could get a Model Y with air suspension, plaid power train, bigger battery, rear wheel steering, massage seats, etc. it would cost more. It's just not an option so you have to buy a bigger car if you want more luxury even if you don't need a bigger sized car.

I mean some are big enough you won't be parking them in a lot of multistory carparks in the UK, won't get past width restrictions in some places, etc.

 

[pgkevet]

I've had a lot a good few big cars, over 5 metres in length but to say a 3 is cramped is maybe a bit of a stretch. It's still a reasonably large car and can easily fit 6 foot adults behind 6 foot tall driver.

Only reason I had larger cars in the past is I wanted high end ones and sadly the more upmarket you go the larger the car tends to get. I don't know how many people might buy it but I'd love a company to make a 3 / Y sized car but with all the bells and whistles of their bigger cars. Sadly more bells = bigger footprint car.

I did say me being cramped in a 3. I'm over 6ft7 and I like cars with lots of elbow room not high centre consoles. No-one is ever comfortable in the seat behind me.

 

[FastLaneJB]

I did say me being cramped in a 3. I'm over 6ft7 and I like cars with lots of elbow room not high centre consoles. No-one is ever comfortable in the seat behind me.

OK fair enough. I imagine you’ll need a long wheel base 7 series / S class kind of length car then for people to be comfortable behind you.

Guess my point was more the Model 3 is similar lengths to BMW 5 series from a while ago. It’s about as big as you want to go in this country and still be able to park is pretty much anywhere. The turning circle could do with improving, just can make the turns in some of the Heathrow multi stories.

When I’ve had my larger cars, I’d never take them into multi stories so you gain practicality from a bigger, more spacious car but then lose some in that it limits where you can go somewhat also.

 

[pgkevet]

I'm aged and solo now so rear passengers aren't a likely scenario. Of all the manufacturers Toyota are best at providing leg room for drivers. No probs when I had the gt86 and I could squeeze that anywhere. It just wasn't much good in snow..indeed the only car I've ever abandoned and walked home from until the ice thawed.....