Tesla says SC are not for profit, but way more expensive than for profit EA chargers

[RTPEV]

Does anyone even care enough to track it?

Well, maybe I'm crazy, but I am tracking it here: fastcharger.info

I track all other networks in the US. It's on my todo list to actually allow filtering by network when looking at stats/maps, so it's not easy to tease out EA-specific data at this time, but it is there.

Why wouldn't people care enough to track it? I started the project because prior to a road trip in our ID4 last summer I was looking to get construction updates on some new potential EA sites opening up en route, but it looked like the only option I had was people occasionally posting updates to Plugshare. What I was looking for was a forum-based approach similar to TMC & supercharge.info, so I created my own. Clearly there is a very vibrant community tracking Supercharger data, so why do you think there wouldn't be a similar community for the non-Tesla crowd?

Does their # of chargers count 2 connectors sharing 1 parking space? From those who famously cheated on diesel emissions, this data is suspect.
Don't get me wrong, I hope for a good charging infrastructure other than Tesla but if EA's antics are our hope, we're in bad shape.

No. According to my database, there are 784 open EA sites, with 3400 (yes, that is a precise number, not rounded) stalls. So their 800/3500 number is a bit on the high side, but I suspect they are counting some that are imminently opening (we're in a bit of a slow period right now, but the trend is that about 5 sites open per week, mostly 4 stalls each).

EA is one of the few providers that actually do count their sites/stalls correctly.

EVgo definitely overcounts their stalls (although possibly they are reporting "connectors" in the AFDC database, not stalls). I usually rely on Plugshare pictures to confirm EVgo stall counts. I will say that their newer sites do tend to feature two 100/100 (CCS/CHAdeMO) units that technically allow simultaneous charging, but only allocating one parking spot per unit, and a single 350kW dual connector CCS unit set up for shared charging with two reserved parking spots. I would count such a site as 4 stalls, but EVgo claims 6 (connectors).

(here is a picture of an EVgo site that opened up just down the street with 2 350kW dual units (on the left), so this is actually a 6 stall that EVgo counts as 8):

Most older Blink sites and many newer ones similarly are dual headed, arranged such that there are legitimately two reserved spots.

ChargePoint is a real pain because they put in a separate entry for each individual charging station. I combine co-located stations into a single site for my database.

 

[Earl]

Well, maybe I'm crazy, but I am tracking it here: fastcharger.info

This is great! Yes, you're probably crazy but so are many of the rest of us. I'm glad to see it happening - thanks!
Too bad it is so depressing as far as trying to drive across the USA goes. It looks like I-40 is the only cross-country route. I-80 + I-70 can work too.
At least it is a start.

According to my database, there are 784 open EA sites, with 3400 (yes, that is a precise number, not rounded) stalls.

What do you mean by "a stall"? Does this mean a DCFC connector/cable and a parking space from which to use it? Or, as many of the EA sites near me have (like your photo), a DCFC charger consisting of 2 connectors but only 1 parking space that can reach it: Is "a stall" that 1 parking space that can be served by either connector/cable? To EVgo's credit, they started with a CCS and a CHAdeMO connector on each charger which could power only 1 at a time. Since there were very few cars anyway, it made some sense to only assume 1 car per charger, hence only taking up 1 parking space. When EA came out with 2 CCS per charger (effectively killing support for CHAdeMO), that approach is effectively fraud (their legacy expertise).
From my experience, so many EA stations can only serve 1 car that I figure their claimed number of stations is probably off by 25% or more.

 

[Earl]

As for few, Electrify America claims more than five times the charging sessions in 2021 vs. 2020 claims "The company said in a press release that it provided 1.45 million charging sessions in 2021, which is more than five times the 268,000 charging sessions reported for 2020.


I've used them a bunch of times w/my native CCS cars. I check Plugshare but although some stations or handles are busted, as long as there's an open charger, I've always been able to charge on another one there. Most of my EV juice from them has been for free, both announced and unannounced.

Good to see growth.
This is great for you since so few others use or even can use their network.

 

[RTPEV]

What do you mean by "a stall"?

I count a stall as a dedicated parking spot that can be used to charge a vehicle from its own connector at the same time as a vehicle in an adjacent spot, even if they are using the same charging station (albeit at lower power, because it is being shared). If it's a dual-headed station but only one connector can be used at a time (like most EA units), then that only counts as one stall, even if they can be accessed from two spots (although most EA stations are not situated like that). And like many EVgo sites that have 100/100kW units that even state right on the machine that they support simultaneous charging (not visible, but the units on the far right of my picture are such), if they haven't dedicated two spots per unit, I only count that as one stall.

The only time this gets a bit tricky is the case where there is a CCS/CHAdeMO unit capable of simultaneous charging AND they have dedicated two spots to it. Would you count this as one or two stalls? I mean if two CCS vehicles or two CHAdeMO vehicles showed up at the same time, only one could charge at a time. But a CCS vehicle and a CHAdeMO vehicle showed up at the same time, both could charge. I have decided to call this two stalls, but I can certainly see the other case. Fortunately these cases are rare.

When EA came out with 2 CCS per charger (effectively killing support for CHAdeMO), that approach is effectively fraud (their legacy expertise).
From my experience, so many EA stations can only serve 1 car that I figure their claimed number of stations is probably off by 25% or more.

No, they only count the two CCS stations as a single station/stall. This is actually the vast majority of their stations. At each site they typically only have one station that is CCS/CHAdeMO and the rest are CCS/CCS. But the additional connector per station is simply there to accommodate different charge port locations, not to count as an independent stall.

BTW, after processing today's additions, the count now stands at 787 sites and 3414 stalls.

I don't have a lot of their "coming soon" sites in my database as of now (the community is still quite small and not yet as active as this one), but I have 2 sites under CONSTRUCTION that are probably going to be coming online imminently (EA has already added their records to the AFDC database, but they are not yet active in the app), 3 others that are in CONSTRUCTION status with proven pictures, and 4 that are in PLANNED status. But since I don't have great headlights, most of the additions just appear one day and are usually active about a week later. I'm hoping to grow my community so that we get the same kind of advance notice as we have for Superchargers.

 

[cwerdna]

Good to see growth.
This is great for you since so few others use or even can use their network.

Why so few can use their network? Other than Leaf, every non-Tesla highway legal BEV consumer automobile sold/leased as new in the US that can be DC FCed has or can have CCS1 inlet.

A bunch of automakers are including some free EV juice on EA. Kinda funny how VW competitors are paying a VW-owned charging provider. And for others, the cars are already part of the VAG family (for the US: VW. Audi and Porsche):

https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/172

- EV6

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2020/06/15/ford-mustang-mach-e-electrify-america.html

Hyundai Premium Charging | Electrify America

www.electrifyamerica.com

- Kona EV and Ioniq EV

Hyundai IONIQ 5 To Come With 2 Years Of Free Charging On Electrify America Network

We examine the announcement that Hyundai and Electrify America have agreed to offer Ioniq 5 owners 2 years of free charging on the Electrify America network.

insideevs.com

https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/7

- Lucid

Polestar 2 Gets 2 Years Of Free Fast Charging At Electrify America

Polestar and Electrify America announced an agreement that will result in free fast charging over a period of two years for all Polestar 2 sold in the U.S.

insideevs.com

Porsche Taycan owners will get three years free charging at hundreds of Electrify America stations | TechCrunch

Owners of the upcoming Porsche Taycan will get three years of free charging at hundreds of Electrify America public stations that will blanket the U.S. in

techcrunch.com

Audi E-Tron GT comes with three years of free fast charging

Owners of the 2022 Audi E-Tron GT and RS E-Tron GT can plug into three years of DC fast charing on the Electrify America network.

www.motorauthority.com

Volkswagen | Electrify America

www.electrifyamerica.com

Back to reliability, when browsing the Plugshare activity feed, I often see people complain about credit card readers not working. But, it's not an EA only thing. Electrify America Talks Charging Network Problems, Has Solutions under about those credit card readers advises people to use their app. So, duh, don't use CC readers! Yes, I know it's stupid and shouldn't be this way but that seems like the best choice, for now.

Interview: Electrify America expects you to raise hell if chargers don’t work says:
"One of the biggest problems is faulty credit-card readers. Not only do many of Electrify America’s stations have connectivity problems, but even when a connection is made, a charging session can be dropped halfway through. That’s because the financial session is open until a final payment amount is determined. The connection gets lost in the middle, causing the driver to start all over again. Using the Electrify America app solves the problem."

And, it's ridiculous the amount of people w/Bolts and some other EVs that don't know EA makes a video on how to prop-up the cable being often needed on EA due to their heavy cables and handles. They'll complain about problems and how "none" work and other cars charge fine and when asked about that they say, they didn't know. Again, it's stupid and inexcusable but it is what it is so that's the workaround. Some people have such hatred for CHAdeMO here and elsewhere yet it had a few more years to evolve and doesn't have this issue.

 

[ambudriver03]

I have yet to use a CC reader on EA, mostly because the app, mostly works, and the readers essentially never work.

I did use the NFC, and thought for sure it was charging my credit card based on the Google pay prompt, but EA splash screen said "Welcome username"

 

[Earl]

Why so few can use their network? Other than Leaf, every non-Tesla highway legal BEV consumer automobile sold/leased as new in the US that can be DC FCed has or can have CCS1 inlet.

Highway legal and Highway viable are 2 different things. Going beyond range of home or work charging in any EV other than a Tesla and, perhaps the MachE, Porsche, and a couple of Kia/Hyundais is a chore few will take on and, there aren't very many of those. I don't consider the 50KW charge-capable Bolt to be viable for example. There also aren't many Tesla owners who have jumped through the hoops, taken the risks, and have cars able to use the 3rd party/gray market CCS adapters for Teslas. You've got the networks to yourself!

Activating charging sessions is a different issue. Have you tried to use either a credit card, or smartphone app while standing out in the rain or extreme cold? Since, my experience is that this endeavor takes 5 to 20 minutes, often with a call to the company, its enough to dissuade even the most hardy individual. It has moved even me to seek Tesla Superchargers when a CHAdeMO may be near something more convenient for me.

What about using a smartphone in blazing bright sunlight? Remember, most gas stations have awnings covering the gas pumps where one must go through such miserable rituals.

At least EVgo, Greenlots, and ChargePoint have convenient RFID cards which one can quickly tap and start charging. Their reliability and charging speed isn't great either, of course.

 

[cwerdna]

The only reason why I mention highway legal is to exclude Neighborhood Electric Vehicle - Wikipedia, which are capped at 25 mph. My work has some GEM NEVs, can confirm they are capped at 25 mph and I used to drive them back/forth between certain buildings. It is pretty funny to floor it have it go no faster than ~25 mph (might read 26) on a road w/a speed limit of 35 mph.

 

[Earl]

GEM NEVs

Ah yes, the glorious GEM.
Chrysler gave away golf carts, many to government installations to get 0.1 ZEV credit, and, conveniently, continue to reinforce the myth that EVs are slow, weak, and niche vehicles instead of offering real cars that could replace ICE. This was only slightly more heinous than Ford's Th!nk Mobility vehicles but they would go 55mph as long.

 

[RTPEV]

Highway legal and Highway viable are 2 different things. Going beyond range of home or work charging in any EV other than a Tesla and, perhaps the MachE, Porsche, and a couple of Kia/Hyundais is a chore few will take on and, there aren't very many of those. I don't consider the 50KW charge-capable Bolt to be viable for example. There also aren't many Tesla owners who have jumped through the hoops, taken the risks, and have cars able to use the 3rd party/gray market CCS adapters for Teslas. You've got the networks to yourself!

Activating charging sessions is a different issue. Have you tried to use either a credit card, or smartphone app while standing out in the rain or extreme cold? Since, my experience is that this endeavor takes 5 to 20 minutes, often with a call to the company, its enough to dissuade even the most hardy individual. It has moved even me to seek Tesla Superchargers when a CHAdeMO may be near something more convenient for me.

What about using a smartphone in blazing bright sunlight? Remember, most gas stations have awnings covering the gas pumps where one must go through such miserable rituals.

At least EVgo, Greenlots, and ChargePoint have convenient RFID cards which one can quickly tap and start charging. Their reliability and charging speed isn't great either, of course.

I think you are being a bit hyperbolic here, and certainly not very forward thinking.

For sure the Bolt and the LEAF are not appropriate for long distance travel, but they can both be used just fine for regional travel (2X the range of the vehicle). And it's certainly a bit more than just the cars you listed, but even those vehicles alone are starting to represent a fair number of EVs on the road.

Another crazy bit of tracking I do is to use ABRP to simulate a variety of road trips (most realistic, and some unrealistic like the Cannonball Run which I doubt most people would actually drive) to track the improvement of vehicles and charging networks over time. I do this survey twice a year--my only problem is that I haven't figured out a good way to convey the information I get out.

Here are the cars I tracked for this summer's survey with the total travel times for a realistic trip that I take:

2018 Tesla Model 3 LR RWD (my personal, calibrated vehicle)	10:40
2022 Tesla Model 3 LR (18") AWD (82kWh)	10:42
2022 Tesla Model Y LR AWD	10:56
2020+ Chevy BoltEV	12:36
2020+ Hyundai KonaEV (64kWh)	12:18
Kia e-Niro (64kWh)	12:00
2021 Audi e-Tron (55)	11:17
2021+ Audi e-Tron Sportback (55)	11:13
2021 Jaguar i-Pace EV400	12:31
2018+ Nissan LEAF e+ (62kWh)	12:31
Porsche Taycan 4S (93kWh)	11:21
VW ID.4 Pro RWD (77kWh) w/ heatpump	11:44
2022 Ford Mustang Mach-E Extended Range RWD	11:05
2022 Polestar 2 Long Range Single Motor	11:33
2022 Tesla Model 3 Standard (60kWh LFP) w/ 18" aero wheels	11:11
Kia EV6 Long Range RWD	10:46
Hyundai Ioniq 5 (US Long Range)	10:51
Chevy Bolt EUV	13:09
Volvo XC40 (w/ Heatpump)	12:09
Ford F-150 Lightning	11:22

Here is what that looks like in a chart (not sure if this is the best way to present it):

My personal opinion, for this trip, is that any vehicle under the 12 hour threshold (or maybe 11:30) is probably appropriate for this trip given typical stopping times. I think the Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq5 actually compare quite favorably with the Model Y. Even the VW ID4 manages to do pretty well here.

The difference is more exaggerated in the unrealistic Cannonball Run case:

Granted, all that is for naught if as you say the typical session time is extended by 5-20 minutes on the phone with a CSR trying to get the charging station to work. And while I will certainly admit it's not as easy as a Supercharger, I don't quite buy the argument that it's necessarily always a 5-20 minute process (always in the rain) either. On last summer's trip with the ID4, once we got used to the correct process, it was usually only around a minute of actual standing outside the car. We would initiate the process comfortably inside the car (involving bringing up the app and getting to the point where it said to plug in the car). Most of this could be done by the passenger as we approached the charging station, but in the event of a solo trip, this would fairly add to the total time). Once given the go ahead to plug in, then we would hop outside and plug the vehicle in, and if need be, hop right back in the vehicle (although typically we would then visit whatever establishment we were at). Delays in charging were usually the result of either having to queue up, or dealing with a slow charger. Twice I had to spend time on the phone with a CSR: once because our car would not initiate a charge after disconnecting from a previous station due to its being slow (I think the network thought we were still active on the other charger), and once because the station was so new that it did not even register on the app (I think it had opened just the day prior).

Once we got the hang of it, it became more routine. Granted, that was last year and I think we'd have to relearn the process again. And with Plug and Charge starting to become a reality, the process is becoming even more streamlined.

 

[avs007]

I think you are being a bit hyperbolic here, and certainly not very forward thinking.

For sure the Bolt and the LEAF are not appropriate for long distance travel, but they can both be used just fine for regional travel (2X the range of the vehicle). And it's certainly a bit more than just the cars you listed, but even those vehicles alone are starting to represent a fair number of EVs on the road.

Another crazy bit of tracking I do is to use ABRP to simulate a variety of road trips (most realistic, and some unrealistic like the Cannonball Run which I doubt most people would actually drive) to track the improvement of vehicles and charging networks over time. I do this survey twice a year--my only problem is that I haven't figured out a good way to convey the information I get out.

Here are the cars I tracked for this summer's survey with the total travel times for a realistic trip that I take:

2018 Tesla Model 3 LR RWD (my personal, calibrated vehicle)	10:40
2022 Tesla Model 3 LR (18") AWD (82kWh)	10:42
2022 Tesla Model Y LR AWD	10:56
2020+ Chevy BoltEV	12:36
2020+ Hyundai KonaEV (64kWh)	12:18
Kia e-Niro (64kWh)	12:00
2021 Audi e-Tron (55)	11:17
2021+ Audi e-Tron Sportback (55)	11:13
2021 Jaguar i-Pace EV400	12:31
2018+ Nissan LEAF e+ (62kWh)	12:31

Not that it matters, but the Leaf is a special case... On paper, it looks that it shouldn't add that much compared to other BEVs, but the thing to note, is that it is NOT actively cooled, so charging will be a problem... Bjorn did a 1000km challenge with the big battery leaf, and it was terrible... After the first DCFC it kept thermal throttling, often quite severely, sometimes to AC charging speeds... It made it so it added like 6 extra hours compared to other BEVs.

 

[RTPEV]

Not that it matters, but the Leaf is a special case... On paper, it looks that it shouldn't add that much compared to other BEVs, but the thing to note, is that it is NOT actively cooled, so charging will be a problem... Bjorn did a 1000km challenge with the big battery leaf, and it was terrible... After the first DCFC it kept thermal throttling, often quite severely, sometimes to AC charging speeds... It made it so it added like 6 extra hours compared to other BEVs.

Yeah, I'm only including the LEAF in there as a worst-case scenario (and because I used to own one). I agree it would not actually be practical to take this on a trip (although oddly enough it actually has an identical travel time to the i-Pace, and better than the BoltEUV on the short trip!

The other problem with the LEAF is that it's going to be overly reliant on unreliable single-station sites, blockages, and possibly outages at single-CHAdeMO connector EA sites.

I am considering adjusting my trip simulations to require a minimum of 4 stalls at visited sites, but I haven't taken that leap yet.

 

[mtbwalt]

Personally, I’m happy to pay a little more if it means I never wait in a queue, ever. Here in the southeast US that has been the reality I have experienced. Most superchargers seem to be at 0-20% stalls in use when I have needed them.

 

[avs007]

I am considering adjusting my trip simulations to require a minimum of 4 stalls at visited sites, but I haven't taken that leap yet.

That's actually what I did, when I was playing around with simulating trips thru areas I haven't been before. I didn't want to get stuck at a place with a single charger, and have it end up being out-of-order, blocked, busy, etc.

 

[Earl]

I think you are being a bit hyperbolic here, and certainly not very forward thinking.

For sure the Bolt and the LEAF are not appropriate for long distance travel, but they can both be used just fine for regional travel (2X the range of the vehicle). And it's certainly a bit more than just the cars you listed, but even those vehicles alone are starting to represent a fair number of EVs on the road.

Another crazy bit of tracking I do is to use ABRP to simulate a variety of road trips (most realistic, and some unrealistic like the Cannonball Run which I doubt most people would actually drive) to track the improvement of vehicles and charging networks over time. I do this survey twice a year--my only problem is that I haven't figured out a good way to convey the information I get out.

Here are the cars I tracked for this summer's survey with the total travel times for a realistic trip that I take:

2018 Tesla Model 3 LR RWD (my personal, calibrated vehicle)	10:40
2022 Tesla Model 3 LR (18") AWD (82kWh)	10:42
2022 Tesla Model Y LR AWD	10:56
2020+ Chevy BoltEV	12:36
2020+ Hyundai KonaEV (64kWh)	12:18
Kia e-Niro (64kWh)	12:00
2021 Audi e-Tron (55)	11:17
2021+ Audi e-Tron Sportback (55)	11:13
2021 Jaguar i-Pace EV400	12:31
2018+ Nissan LEAF e+ (62kWh)	12:31
Porsche Taycan 4S (93kWh)	11:21
VW ID.4 Pro RWD (77kWh) w/ heatpump	11:44
2022 Ford Mustang Mach-E Extended Range RWD	11:05
2022 Polestar 2 Long Range Single Motor	11:33
2022 Tesla Model 3 Standard (60kWh LFP) w/ 18" aero wheels	11:11
Kia EV6 Long Range RWD	10:46
Hyundai Ioniq 5 (US Long Range)	10:51
Chevy Bolt EUV	13:09
Volvo XC40 (w/ Heatpump)	12:09
Ford F-150 Lightning	11:22

Here is what that looks like in a chart (not sure if this is the best way to present it):

View attachment 827401

My personal opinion, for this trip, is that any vehicle under the 12 hour threshold (or maybe 11:30) is probably appropriate for this trip given typical stopping times. I think the Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq5 actually compare quite favorably with the Model Y. Even the VW ID4 manages to do pretty well here.

The difference is more exaggerated in the unrealistic Cannonball Run case:

View attachment 827404

Granted, all that is for naught if as you say the typical session time is extended by 5-20 minutes on the phone with a CSR trying to get the charging station to work. And while I will certainly admit it's not as easy as a Supercharger, I don't quite buy the argument that it's necessarily always a 5-20 minute process (always in the rain) either. On last summer's trip with the ID4, once we got used to the correct process, it was usually only around a minute of actual standing outside the car. We would initiate the process comfortably inside the car (involving bringing up the app and getting to the point where it said to plug in the car). Most of this could be done by the passenger as we approached the charging station, but in the event of a solo trip, this would fairly add to the total time). Once given the go ahead to plug in, then we would hop outside and plug the vehicle in, and if need be, hop right back in the vehicle (although typically we would then visit whatever establishment we were at). Delays in charging were usually the result of either having to queue up, or dealing with a slow charger. Twice I had to spend time on the phone with a CSR: once because our car would not initiate a charge after disconnecting from a previous station due to its being slow (I think the network thought we were still active on the other charger), and once because the station was so new that it did not even register on the app (I think it had opened just the day prior).

Once we got the hang of it, it became more routine. Granted, that was last year and I think we'd have to relearn the process again. And with Plug and Charge starting to become a reality, the process is becoming even more streamlined.

This is great!
However, don't forget that the prize is not: "who has the best EV" but: "who can get folks out of their ICE and into an EV".
If you add ICE refueling time, only the short ones are going to provide good arguments.
Anything approaching an hour of charging for your 10 hour trip is going to give them massive fodder.

 

[RTPEV]

This is great!
However, don't forget that the prize is not: "who has the best EV" but: "who can get folks out of their ICE and into an EV".
If you add ICE refueling time, only the short ones are going to provide good arguments.
Anything approaching an hour of charging for your 10 hour trip is going to give them massive fodder.

Approaching an hour? Maybe for some. But even 45 minutes total stopping time for that trip is pretty typical. Most people are going to stop and eat at least once, and use the restroom. That's about 45 minutes right there.

On a different trip (that I also track), the active driving time is 12.5 hours, and we typically stop 5-6 times (as verified by Google timeline from when we used to take a gas car) for a total of 2.5 hours. Granted, one of those was an extended stop (55-60 minutes) for dinner, but even cutting that down to 2 hours of stopping time on that trip equates to 16% "overhead". For the 10 hour drive, that would equate to about 90 minutes of stops on this trip.

Yeah, we can try to match it up to ICE refueling, and there are always those that claim that all they do is drive 400 miles, hop out of the car and refill it in 5 minutes and then hop right back in and drive another 400 miles (without even stopping to pee). I just doubt that most people actually travel like that. In fact, most of my family stops more frequently than I do and one member of my family does that trip in 2 days!

 

[Earl]

Yeah, we can try to match it up to ICE refueling, and there are always those that claim that all they do is drive 400 miles, hop out of the car and refill it in 5 minutes and then hop right back in and drive another 400 miles (without even stopping to pee). I just doubt that most people actually travel like that. In fact, most of my family stops more frequently than I do and one member of my family does that trip in 2 days!

Yes, it isn't very realistic but they will claim it and use that to rationalize their ICE addiction.
I generally say that my charging stops are between 20 and 30 minutes, adding that that covers bathroom and grabbing fast food because I can do those while the car charges. This sort of shuts down the arguments when their assumptions on charging time range from 1 hour every 2 hours of driving to 4 hours per stop.
This is why I liked Tesla from the start and continue to: They smash ICE performance without apologies. Most of the rest figure that nearly as good as ICE is ok.

 

[RTPEV]

Yes, it isn't very realistic but they will claim it and use that to rationalize their ICE addiction.

They can claim it all they want. I just ask them to honestly assess what their ACTUAL stopping times are and share with them what mine are (almost to the minute they are extremely consistent):

Rest area stop (bathroom/vending machine only): 7 minutes
Gas station: 11 minutes
Lunch @ Subway or equivalent: 24 minutes
Lunch/gas combined at co-located station: 30 minutes
Dinner: 30 minutes

And for good measure I throw in the time that I literally waited for 17 minutes at a Dunkin' Donuts drive-thru, in a pretty rural area by the way, to get the first coffee of the road trip. I wasn't outside my car then, but it just goes to show you how much time we really are stopped that we may not be thinking about.

And I just leave it at that. If they are going to persist in thinking they are always doing the 5-minute fillup thing, I'm not going to argue with them. Let them keep foolishly spending money on gas. But I be more than a few might have realized (but never publicly admitted to me) that yeah, maybe a Tesla-class EV would actually work for them. Either way, I'm not going to waste a whole lot of time on it.

 

[Rocky_H]

Would be interesting to see Tesla offer a paid unlimited charge "PLAN" on say an annual basis.

Or perhaps the ability to buy discounted Supercharger credits in advance. Maybe something like the USPS Forever stamp. You buy the credits (IE kWh) at a discounted current rate and you use at your leisure. If prices go up you're locked in until credit is used up.

They used to, but that was long ago. Back in about 2014, when I was ordering my Model S, there were two battery sizes. The larger one came with the permanent unlimited Supercharging package. The smaller battery version had no Supercharging by default. If you wanted to add Supercharging, it was a $2,000 option for that unlimited package.

Tesla’s dirty little secret: everything they do is for-profit.

This is a publicly traded company. They are not in business to lose money in any area of their operations.

When Tesla said that anything isn't for profit, you can roll your eyes.

Tesla is a for profit company and everything is for profit.

Sigh. These are not true--or at least, they are over-generalized. Every company's customer service department is a money loser. And there are a few other parts of a business that are too--janitorial, for example. Those are simply necessary expenses that don't make money. Not everything within a company is there to make profit. Those are loss leader support systems that enable other parts of the company that DO make profit by selling products. But support is just something you have to offer to stay in business to continue to compete and sell product.

As regards to the Supercharger network, it definitely was a division of the company that was operated at a loss for a long time. That was documented specifically in their quarterly SEC filings. And its purpose was to make travel possible in order to be an attractive feature of the cars to create more sales.

But as of now, yeah, I think Tesla is way beyond that. They have more sales and demand than they can keep up with, so they don't need to run it as a loss leader, and have cranked up the prices to profitable levels, and there will probably be no reason in the future to need to lower them. It can run as its own profitable division now.

 

[TomServo]

They can claim it all they want. I just ask them to honestly assess what their ACTUAL stopping times are and share with them what mine are (almost to the minute they are extremely consistent):

Rest area stop (bathroom/vending machine only): 7 minutes
Gas station: 11 minutes
Lunch @ Subway or equivalent: 24 minutes
Lunch/gas combined at co-located station: 30 minutes
Dinner: 30 minutes

And for good measure I throw in the time that I literally waited for 17 minutes at a Dunkin' Donuts drive-thru, in a pretty rural area by the way, to get the first coffee of the road trip. I wasn't outside my car then, but it just goes to show you how much time we really are stopped that we may not be thinking about.

And I just leave it at that. If they are going to persist in thinking they are always doing the 5-minute fillup thing, I'm not going to argue with them. Let them keep foolishly spending money on gas. But I be more than a few might have realized (but never publicly admitted to me) that yeah, maybe a Tesla-class EV would actually work for them. Either way, I'm not going to waste a whole lot of time on it.

One other item to take into account is the time it takes to get to the SCer from the time you exit the highway and or get back to the highway. I travel 4 times a year from southern IL to southern MD via I-64 and a few of my SCer stops are MILES off the interstate. Louisville and Mt Hope are two that are almost 10 miles off the highway. That adds 15 minutes or more with construction in/around Louisville on 265 we have been stuck in traffic for 20 minutes.