Tesla Supercharger network

[Lloyd]

Selling per kWh is legal in California, and a few other states. (Car Charging Inc. has set their fee set at $.49 per kWh in their mostly parking garage location sites... whenever possible.) In the other states, charging is billed per hour plugged in.

It is illegal to resell electricity in California, but California voted not to consider car charging to be regulated under CPUC in 2010.

http://gigaom.com/cleantech/cali-makes-it-official-electric-car-charging-wont-fall-under-utility-rules/

 

[daxz]

I created a dynamic map Tesla Supercharge Map estimator where you can see how far you can go around supercharger locations. You can move the radius slider (or enter in miles) and see the radius around the locations. Supercharger locations are approximate guessing from presentation map. ( I know I need to clean up CA's locations) - I can try to make a dynamic 5yr plan map too if there is interest.

85/60kWh battery traveling 75mph then you can go about 230/175 miles.
if feel like you need to travel faster or consume more wattage per mile then ideal or are looking 5 years down the road lower the miles:
@80mph - 220/163 miles

To see gaps in network you can use half the distance so you can see where circles do not overlap.

looks like it would be a stretch for 85kWh pack in a few locations without slowing down or supplemental charging.

For me traveling from Denver to Chicago with a 60kWh pack would be tough without going slower.

 

[efusco]

I created a dynamic map Tesla Supercharge Map estimator where you can see how far you can go around supercharger locations. You can move the radius slider (or enter in miles) and see the radius around the locations. Supercharger locations are approximate guessing from presentation map. ( I know I need to clean up CA's locations) - I can try to make a dynamic 5yr plan map too if there is interest.

85/60kWh battery traveling 75mph then you can go about 230/175 miles.
if feel like you need to travel faster or consume more wattage per mile then ideal or are looking 5 years down the road lower the miles:
@80mph - 220/163 miles

To see gaps in network you can use half the distance so you can see where circles do not overlap.
View attachment 10168
looks like it would be a stretch for 85kWh pack in a few locations without slowing down or supplemental charging.

For me traveling from Denver to Chicago with a 60kWh pack would be tough without going slower.

Cool idea. I believe St.Louis had a dot on the 2 year map that I don't see included on your map.

 

[daxz]

Cool idea. I believe St.Louis had a dot on the 2 year map that I don't see included on your map.

Just added one there...

 

[bluetinc]

Just added one there...

Very cool map! Would it be easy to make the already installed Superchargers a differnt color?

Peter

 

[Todd Burch]

Thanks Todd,

Yes, I did miss it. Can you please direct me to the reference.

Larry

Larry, check this thread, starting around the time of the supercharger announcement. Basically, several reports from those that attended the supercharger event and talked to Elon/JB/battery engineers stated that you could supercharge in standard mode as much as you want and you won't have appreciable harm to the battery. These tech and leadership folks from Tesla said the battery could handle it, no problem. Supercharging in range mode, however, is another story.

- - - Updated - - -

For those talking about perhaps adding a fee for supercharger use when Teslas become more common, envision this scenario:

If Tesla were to announce that all future customers would have free fuel (free access to supercharging) for the life of the car...for the life of the company...don't you think that would drive as many people to EVs as possible, and make perhaps the most revolutionary change to the auto industry ever? Not sure of the financials, but I think if Tesla stays efficient, they might be able to make this happen, and end up coming out ahead from it due to incredible sales. Imagine how quickly a dense network of superchargers could develop in this scenario. Literally, market as one of the benefits of Model S/X/E ownership the capability of getting free supercharging for life.

Would have to build many more superchargers? Yes. Would it be profitable? Quite possibly. Would it expand a supercharging infrastructure faster than any other approach? Quite possibly.

 

[RDoc]

daxz - Great map!

For those of us of the X persuasion, it looks like we're going to be obeying the speed limit unfortunately. Perhaps a future upgrade will add Google's auto driving capability so we can take a nap.

It also looks like there are going to be some mandatory overnight stops for many trips. For example, if you want to go through New Orleans, Provincetown, Quebec City, or anywhere down East in Maine, it'll probably be necessary to charge up overnight or at least for several hours.

 

[cinergi]

The incentive is built into the time cost of supercharging. Charging is relatively cheap (compared to gas). Folks that can charge at home almost certainly will purely for the convenience of it. If someone is so hard up for money they're willing to drive to an SC site and wait, then I'm not going to begrudge that.

I meant that we need to make it easier for folks to have home charging -- for example folks living in apartments or have street parking. If we don't make that easy, they'll use SC as if it were a gas station you go to once a week which is the wrong paradigm.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Larry, check this thread, starting around the time of the supercharger announcement. Basically, several reports from those that attended the supercharger event and talked to Elon/JB/battery engineers stated that you could supercharge in standard mode as much as you want and you won't have appreciable harm to the battery. These tech and leadership folks from Tesla said the battery could handle it, no problem. Supercharging in range mode, however, is another story.

Hi Todd,

I found the posting:

The current word from Tesla technicians is that SuperCharging has no effect on battery degradation as long as you charge in standard mode. It will charge up to ~80% in 45 minutes then it will slow the charge rate to protect the battery.

That obviously can be wrong, which is why I'd like to see it in writing from an authoritative source. But the current buzz is that there are no technical issues beyond what I stated.

I believe what the technician is actually saying is that by slowing the charge rate it minimizes battery degradation. I'm not an expert, but his statement as reported by Capitalist Oppressor is inconsistant with what I have read that high capacity charging puts a higher stress on batteries than low capacity charging. In addition, Supercharging will generally occur when the state of charge is low and I believe that will also put a higher stress on a battery than merely "topping off". So I am dubious that Supercharging will have no effect.

My earlier point was not that a single Supercharging event, or infrequent Supercharging, would cause serious damage. The point was that the cumulative effect of frequent Supercharging events would degrade the battery faster, perhaps to the point where warranty issues may come into play. I recall reading, but can't find now, a Tesla guidance that recommended avoiding Supercharging at more the 1-2% of total charging time. I sent an email to Tesla to get a more authoritative written guidance.

Larry

 

[NuclearPowered]

I have hobby batteries that can charge at 10C. I doubt charging at just over 1C would do any long term damage with a sophisticated BMS and charging algorithm.

 

[Todd Burch]

I believe what the technician is actually saying is that by slowing the charge rate it minimizes battery degradation. I'm not an expert, but his statement as reported by Capitalist Oppressor is inconsistant with what I have read that high capacity charging puts a higher stress on batteries than low capacity charging. In addition, Supercharging will generally occur when the state of charge is low and I believe that will also put a higher stress on a battery than merely "topping off". So I am dubious that Supercharging will have no effect.

My earlier point was not that a single Supercharging event, or infrequent Supercharging, would cause serious damage. The point was that the cumulative effect of frequent Supercharging events would degrade the battery faster, perhaps to the point where warranty issues may come into play. I recall reading, but can't find now, a Tesla guidance that recommended avoiding Supercharging at more the 1-2% of total charging time. I sent an email to Tesla to get a more authoritative written guidance.

Larry

Post #572 from this thread:

I asked this question to 3 or 4 different people, they all said no limit to number of charges, they designed the battery/charging system with the Supercharger network in mind.

Post #574 from this thread:

A Tesla guy by Elon's car answered some of these q's:....No limit, DC to battery with battery management venting....

Post #592 from this thread:

I can confirm. The Tesla employee said JB said the car can totally handle it.

Post #83 from the Forum>Media>News>Supercharger Event 2012/9/24 thread:

I attended today's event and spoke with a Tesla technician to clarify this issue regarding potential adverse effects of supercharging on battery life. He explained that frequent supercharging actually causes NO degradation of battery life if the vehicle is set in Standard charging mode. It is only Range charging which causes degradation. He also mentioned that the 85kWh battery will reach ~80% charge after 45 minutes after which the rate of supercharging slows to protect the battery.

Post #88 from that thread:

Also attended the event tonight. Finer points learned from my many questions to Elon and George and JB...
...5. The superchargers do not affect battery life according to one of the supercharger engineers. They will charge in standard mode, ramping the charge down as the battery exceeds 50% charge so that the battery is protected.

So that one's from Elon, George, or JB. I trust Spatters' ability to take notes . Doesn't hurt to get clarification, but we have a lot of corroborating evidence here.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Post #572 from this thread:


Post #574 from this thread:


Post #592 from this thread:


Post #83 from the Forum>Media>News>Supercharger Event 2012/9/24 thread:


Post #88 from that thread:


So that one's from Elon, George, or JB. I trust Spatters' ability to take notes . Doesn't hurt to get clarification, but we have a lot of corroborating evidence here.

Todd,

Thanks very much for the comprehensive response. Yes, I see what you mean about corroborating evidence. In my email to Tesla I pointed out that the Facts web page, which discusses charging facts, says nothing about the Supercharger. Perhaps they can provide this type of information to allay fears.

Thanks again.

Larry

 

[JRP3]

I have hobby batteries that can charge at 10C. I doubt charging at just over 1C would do any long term damage with a sophisticated BMS and charging algorithm.

In fact since the high power charging only takes place up to 80% SOC there is not much need for the BMS or any sort of charge algorithm involved till nearing the end of charge when current is lowered. Now, there will be slightly more stress to the battery with supercharging than with lower powered charging, just as there is slightly more stress to the battery at a 40 amp charge rate than a 20 amp charge rate, but the differences should be small.

 

[Robert.Boston]

It also looks like there are going to be some mandatory overnight stops for many trips. For example, if you want to go through New Orleans, Provincetown, Quebec City, or anywhere down East in Maine, it'll probably be necessary to charge up overnight or at least for several hours.

That's not hardship duty, to spend the night in any of those locales! Still, I concur that Tesla should extend the network to provide better coverage to these areas. I'd add "New Hampshire ski resorts", as the Lebanon charger is wicked inconvenient to the White Mountain region.

 

[Larry Chanin]

I recall reading, but can't find now, a Tesla guidance that recommended avoiding Supercharging at more the 1-2% of total charging time. I sent an email to Tesla to get a more authoritative written guidance.

The following was posted on September 24, 2012:

When I was at the Menlo Park store about a month ago, I overheard one of the staff say the guidance is that you shouldn't supercharge more than 2% of the time. Apparently, that was the rule of thumb recommendation they were coached to tell customers about how often you should supercharge back then. He didn't say anything about the ramifications for exceeding 2%, and I'm sure that's a complex answer.

To paraphrase using current political jargon, it seems Tesla's verbal guidance on this subject has evolved. :biggrin:

Hopefully Tesla will be amenable to a written guidance placed on the Fact web page.

Larry

 

[W.Petefish]

I have hobby batteries that can charge at 10C. I doubt charging at just over 1C would do any long term damage with a sophisticated BMS and charging algorithm.

Yeah, and those things make one heck of a bang when they fail.

 

[doug]

So I'm surprised there isn't at least a dust cover on the connector. Seems like it wouldn't take very long for debris to collect in there.

 

[AnOutsider]

View attachment 10172

So I'm surprised there isn't at least a dust cover on the connector. Seems like it wouldn't take very long for debris to collect in there.

Or water...

 

[JRP3]

It'll all burn off during a charge :wink:

 

[Lloyd]

I believe it was said that the connector is covered with a sliding door when not in use.