Ford Announcement appears to indicate Full access to Supercharger Network (including V2) as a part of an expanded NACS agreement

[lynyrdM]

I saw this Electrek article where Ford announced an expansion of access to superchargers from a total of 12,000 chargers to 15,000.

They also released a map GIF showing which Superchargers they would have access to (dark blue dots) and I noticed it includes many V2 Supercharger locations. I haven't checked the whole map but I have attached a version here where I highlighted in red the chargers in my immediate area which I know are V2 only. From what I can tell, it appears Ford will have full access to the entire SC network and will not be limited to V3 chargers as was once considered the case.

I have never bought the argument that the restriction of non-Teslas with NACS to V3+ chargers was a technical restriction. V2 Superchargers are open to non-Teslas in Europe so V2 chargers can speak CCS.

 

[KJD]

While I share your skepticism over the V2 V3 restriction, there could be another explanation. It could be that Tesla just plans on building new V3 stations very close to the V2 stations that are heavily used.

In Moab UT there is a new V3 station a couple of miles from the old V2 station. In Richfield UT there is a new V3 under construction one exit away from the V2 station on I-70. In Nephi UT the V3 and V2 stations are on the same property.

There is also this article that seems to confirm this.
Ford expands EV charging network, Tesla Supercharger V4 hardware coming

Ford also confirmed to Green Car Reports, in follow-up questions about the higher number of Superchargers, that this simply reflects an updated total of V3 Superchargers anticipated next year when Ford makes them available. All V4 Superchargers will be added to the BlueOval network, too, although it did not provide details on timing.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I saw this Electrek article where Ford announced an expansion of access to superchargers from a total of 12,000 chargers to 15,000.

They also released a map GIF showing which Superchargers they would have access to (dark blue dots) and I noticed it includes many V2 Supercharger locations. I haven't checked the whole map but I have attached a version here where I highlighted in red the chargers in my immediate area which I know are V2 only. From what I can tell, it appears Ford will have full access to the entire SC network and will not be limited to V3 chargers as was once considered the case.

I have never bought the argument that the restriction of non-Teslas with NACS to V3+ chargers was a technical restriction. V2 Superchargers are open to non-Teslas in Europe so V2 chargers can speak CCS.

View attachment 987022

V2s in Europe were retrofitted with CCS connectors to support the new cars, so it's likely they also added CCS support at the same time. They never made the CCS cars in Europe backwards compatible with the old non-CCS connector (they straight up just retrofitted all the stations with CCS).

There was no equivalent retrofit that happened for the V2s in the US.

 

[Tronguy]

V2s in Europe were retrofitted with CCS connectors to support the new cars, so it's likely they also added CCS support at the same time. They never made the CCS cars in Europe backwards compatible with the old non-CCS connector (they straight up just retrofitted all the stations with CCS).

There was no equivalent retrofit that happened for the V2s in the US.

OK, stupid question. My understanding with CCS support is that we're not talking voltage levels and grounds; we're talking the protocol that chugs back and forth across the cable. Otherwise that J1772 adapter that every Tesla comes with wouldn't work.

So, if that's the case: Can the software/firmware that runs on Superchargers be updated remotely? Seems kind of silly to have all that expense on a Supercharger but not have a remote update capability..

Now, with actual Tesla cars, older cars needed an actual wiring harness change and, I think, a module change, in order to talk CCS. But that's still not a Supercharger, that's a car.

Anybody know for sure?

 

[lynyrdM]

While I share your skepticism over the V2 V3 restriction, there could be another explanation. It could be that Tesla just plans on building new V3 stations very close to the V2 stations that are heavily used.

In Moab UT there is a new V3 station a couple of miles from the old V2 station. In Richfield UT there is a new V3 under construction one exit away from the V2 station on I-70. In Nephi UT the V3 and V2 stations are on the same property.

There is also this article that seems to confirm this.
Ford expands EV charging network, Tesla Supercharger V4 hardware coming

This is a possibility and I’ve seen it happen here in Tulsa where a V3 was added in another part of town but if you look at the Ford map they show both V2 (Hard Rock) and V3 (Tulsa Hills) Tulsa charging locations. So in order to offer V3+ service at the Hard Rock location, another V3 location nearer to that V2 would have to be built or the site would need to be expanded with V3 stalls.

There are many other locations like this on the Ford map. As another example, heading west from Salina, KS on I70 you see multiple sites where you have a V2 right next to a V3 on this map and I know these V3 sites were added by Tesla later for speed and capacity. Would Tesla be adding V3 stalls at the Hays V2 and Colby V2 sites where a V3 (also on this map) are already right nearby? I would guess not but you could be right, maybe V3 stalls get added to these V2 sites.

As near as I can tell from this map, if V2s cannot be used then Tesla would have to add V3 stalls to every V2 location by Spring of 2024 which I am skeptical of.

 

[stopcrazypp]

OK, stupid question. My understanding with CCS support is that we're not talking voltage levels and grounds; we're talking the protocol that chugs back and forth across the cable. Otherwise that J1772 adapter that every Tesla comes with wouldn't work.

So, if that's the case: Can the software/firmware that runs on Superchargers be updated remotely? Seems kind of silly to have all that expense on a Supercharger but not have a remote update capability..

Now, with actual Tesla cars, older cars needed an actual wiring harness change and, I think, a module change, in order to talk CCS. But that's still not a Supercharger, that's a car.

Anybody know for sure?

Unfortunately for DC, it's not just a software change. The way legacy supercharging communicates is via a CANBUS. The way CCS communicates is via PLC (power line communication), which requires a specialized chip, which means there must be a hardware retrofit.

That's why the cars need a module change and some newer cars missing that chip during the chip shortage can't support CCS (and also why the old third-party active CCS adapter that came out before Tesla's had to be active). The equivalent chip needs to be installed on the supercharger side also.

That chip has been subject to complaints in the retrofit community (for example Leaf owners hoping to retrofit CCS) because it is patent encumbered by Qualcomm, so there are a limited amount of suppliers. Even though technically as an open standard, it has to be offered under FRAND terms, the suppliers will not talk to you if all you want are a handful of chips (or it may be ridiculously expensive if part of an evaluation module). They have to resort to cannibalizing BMW i3 modules. The CANBUS implementation in legacy supercharging (and also part of CHAdeMO) on the other hand can be implemented by most generic microprocessors, but that ship has sailed.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This is a possibility and I’ve seen it happen here in Tulsa where a V3 was added in another part of town but if you look at the Ford map they show both V2 (Hard Rock) and V3 (Tulsa Hills) Tulsa charging locations. So in order to offer V3+ service at the Hard Rock location, another V3 location nearer to that V2 would have to be built or the site would need to be expanded with V3 stalls.

There are many other locations like this on the Ford map. As another example, heading west from Salina, KS on I70 you see multiple sites where you have a V2 right next to a V3 on this map and I know these V3 sites were added by Tesla later for speed and capacity. Would Tesla be adding V3 stalls at the Hays V2 and Colby V2 sites where a V3 (also on this map) are already right nearby? I would guess not but you could be right, maybe V3 stalls get added to these V2 sites.

As near as I can tell from this map, if V2s cannot be used then Tesla would have to add V3 stalls to every V2 location by Spring of 2024 which I am skeptical of.

They could also retrofit CCS support just like they did in Europe, but that doesn't mean the existing V2 chargers would have worked previously without such a retrofit. As mentioned in post above, both sides need a PLC chip to communicate via the CCS protocol.

 

[E90alex]

OK, stupid question. My understanding with CCS support is that we're not talking voltage levels and grounds; we're talking the protocol that chugs back and forth across the cable. Otherwise that J1772 adapter that every Tesla comes with wouldn't work.

So, if that's the case: Can the software/firmware that runs on Superchargers be updated remotely? Seems kind of silly to have all that expense on a Supercharger but not have a remote update capability..

Now, with actual Tesla cars, older cars needed an actual wiring harness change and, I think, a module change, in order to talk CCS. But that's still not a Supercharger, that's a car.

Anybody know for sure?

J1772 AC charging signaling is different than CCS DC charging signaling.

If they could have simply updated the supercharger software to “speak” CCS then they would have been able to just update the car software to speak CCS as well. But clearly they lack the proper hardware since it requires a retrofit.

 

[lynyrdM]

They could also retrofit CCS support just like they did in Europe, but that doesn't mean the existing V2 chargers would have worked previously without such a retrofit. As mentioned in post above, both sides need a PLC chip to communicate via the CCS protocol.

This is what I’m thinking. Ford may have helped finance a CCS protocol upgrade to V2s in exchange for access.

 

[MP3Mike]

It is, also, possible that Ford made a mistake on the map. The 15k stall count that they say they will have access to is still significantly below the actual number of Supercharger stalls in North America. (Which is over 25k, if I recall correctly)

 

[gsmith123]

While I share your skepticism over the V2 V3 restriction, there could be another explanation. It could be that Tesla just plans on building new V3 stations very close to the V2 stations that are heavily used.

In Moab UT there is a new V3 station a couple of miles from the old V2 station. In Richfield UT there is a new V3 under construction one exit away from the V2 station on I-70. In Nephi UT the V3 and V2 stations are on the same property.

While technically possible I don't think this is likely. Tesla more often leaves V2 stations and adds new V3 stations in the gaps.

I know, there's exceptions. You cited a few. Silverthorne and Lone Tree CO are others. But in my opinion Tesla prefers to adding V3s. I can cite a bunch of these offhand (all in CO):

- Monument
- Forest Bluffs
- Idaho Springs
- Rifle
- Parachute
- Edwards
- Denver East 45th Ave
- Pueblo

These are all V3s that are not at existing V2 sites, but there are V2 sites fairly close they could have elected to upgrade instead.

Looking at Fords map there's about 8 V2 Superchargers in Wyoming. I just can't believe Tesla would upgrade / expand each of those sites. They'd prefer to fill the gaps, particularly on the I80 route and I25.

 

[ChrisInVegas]

When I read this, I was thinking retrofit for the old V2s. I am just excited it is happening regardless of "how" it is happening. Updates since the initial announcement by Ford have been hard to come by. We have a MYLR and a Lightning, and the Lightning is way more comfy for family road trips, but the charging situation is a nightmare. Just comparing a trip from Vegas to Reno, the difference in time due to charging is awful. Lightning: 2h47 minutes charging due to no fast charging options. MYLR: 44minutes charging. AND... for the Lightning, you are in trouble when the chargers are broken!

An open Tesla network for all EVs can't get here fast enough!

 

[Lance From Jax]

I kinda hate the fact that Ford can brand it Ford on their map.

 

[ChrisInVegas]

I kinda hate the fact that Ford can brand it Ford on their map.

I don't disagree, but when people pull up to the chargers, there is no mystery who owns/operates the chargers.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

It is, also, possible that Ford made a mistake on the map. The 15k stall count that they say they will have access to is still significantly below the actual number of Supercharger stalls in North America. (Which is over 25k, if I recall correctly)

At the time of the original announcement there were about 12k V3 stalls open
There are now over 15k. Tesla has opened a lot of locations.

 

[sleepydoc]

Here’s another issue - the cables at the superchargers I’ve been to are too short to reach any charge port other than Tesla’s (or possibly the nose port on a Nissan Leaf)

Is Tesla planning on installing longer cables to allow other cars to charge without parking sideways and blocking 4 bays at a time?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Here’s another issue - the cables at the superchargers I’ve been to are too short to reach any charge port other than Tesla’s (or possibly the nose port on a Nissan Leaf)

Is Tesla planning on installing longer cables to allow other cars to charge without parking sideways and blocking 4 bays at a time?

The V4s have longer cables, but there are no announced plans of making the cables longer at existing V3 sites. Tesla have not done that in Europe either where the same potential problem existed, people just figured it out.

Unless you weren't trying very hard, typically it's possible to park practically any car and block only two spaces, even with the short cable.

The only hope is that Tesla have negotiated with the auto manufacturers using NACS and asked them to put the port at a location where the car would not have to block 2 spaces.

 

[sleepydoc]

The V4s have longer cables, but there are no announced plans of making the cables longer at existing V3 sites. Tesla have not done that in Europe either where the same potential problem existed, people just figured it out.

Unless you weren't trying very hard, typically it's possible to park practically any car and block only two spaces, even with the short cable.

The only hope is that Tesla have negotiated with the auto manufacturers using NACS and asked them to put the port at a location where the car would not have to block 2 spaces.

Even blocking 2 spaces will be an issue. Many superchargers are already heavily used. I can’t imagine it will go over well when people show up to a supercharger and find out they can’t charge because a Ford is taking 2 spots.

 

[ChrisInVegas]

Even blocking 2 spaces will be an issue. Many superchargers are already heavily used. I can’t imagine it will go over well when people show up to a supercharger and find out they can’t charge because a Ford is taking 2 spots.

The last thing I want to do is block two spots, but when you gotta charge you do what you have to. The strategic thing to do would be to leave the spots on the end empty if possible so Fords aren't blocking two chargers.

My dream would be if the CCS to NACS adapter came with an extension cable, but I understand this isn't really possible with liquid-cooled cables.

 

[gsmith123]

The strategic thing to do would be to leave the spots on the end empty if possible so Fords aren't blocking two chargers.

If drivers are smart (which they are not) then the "Tesla position" charge port cars all need to group together on the left side (facing the chargers) and the "wrong position" cars need to group up on the right side.

Done correctly this significantly reduces the number of wasted stalls. Down to zero actually, if the chargers are laid out in a way that supports and everyone uses the right spot.

A big barrier to everyone optimizing charge parking is people have been trained to leave a gap between cars (because of V2 power sharing); at V3 "magic dock" stations and stations open to other cars soon we need to stop leaving the gaps. Parking every other car is the worst thing to do for leaving space for "wrong position" cars.

More realistically I think Tesla will just not open up the Superchargers that are already under heavy load. Especially if they have alternate charging options close.