Tesla Supercharger network

[DCWitt]

While the supercharger network is a bold development and marketing step for Tesla, we should not underestimate the value of other DC charging solutions. ChadeMo is one example. From what I have read, the ChadeMo chargers are capable of adding range nearly as fast as superchargers. Tesla should put development of a ChadeMo adaptor/protocol very high on their list of priorities. Wouldn't it be life changing if our society could build out thousands rather than hundreds of fast DC charging stations? This may be one of those rare circumstances where government might actually be able to bring a very big solution to the table.

 

[Doug_G]

Chademo would be about 1/2 as fast as a Supercharger. Still, if there was no Supercharger around and I had the option of using one, I would! Not that there are any.

 

[ChadS]

Chademo would be about 1/2 as fast as a Supercharger.

Maybe. Typical CHAdeMO installs are 48kW, while typical Supercharger installs are 90kW.

But if 90kW was going in to my battery, I would expect almost 270mph. Over several superchargers, I have averaged just about half of that. Now, there may be several things contributing to the lower charge rate, some of which might also apply to CHAdeMO and slow that down too. But it's also possible that most of the lower rate is due to throttling to protect the pack, which wouldn't have to happen with CHAdeMO. It is possible (though not at all a given) that some CHAdeMO charges would be just as fast as a Supercharge.

The fact that there are no CHAdeMO stations near you seems a bigger issue. :smile:

 

[brianman]

Being engineers, I suspect Tesla management underestimated the amount of time it takes to finish negotiations with landowners and make legal agreements with them.

Pretty generic assertion. Basis? Are you saying all engineers have no management skills just by definition?

Tesla's lawyers are not so hot so they are probably having trouble with negotiating easement agreements, etc.

What's your basis for this assertion? I can think of 2 examples off-hand where we have evidence to the contrary (court cases regarding "dealerships" and Texas delivery experience improving). Has Tesla lost any legal matter on the merits in their entire history as a company (I honestly don't know)?

 

[Robert.Boston]

Pretty generic assertion. Basis? Are you saying all engineers have no management skills just by definition?

I agree with @neroden's conjecture. What else could be the bottleneck?

Has Tesla lost any legal matter on the merits in their entire history as a company (I honestly don't know)?

Tesla lost its claims against Top Gear. However, litigation skill and contract negotiations aren't necessarily the same. Playing the local ground-game is what's critical.

 

[gregincal]

Skill of Tesla's lawyers aside, I believe they have said (at least informally) that negotiating sites is the bottleneck. However, presumably they are doing the negotiations in parallel, so we'll probably see openings speed up as time goes on. Why do they need to open at a steady rate?

 

[zeron]

Maybe many sites lack proper power supply. Given that each supercharger has at least 4 slots each at 90kW, you need 360kW of power at peak. This optimization problem of picking suitable places has many many constraints.

 

[RandyS]

I have been helping EVSPs work on these very issues in San Diego. Without a doubt there are two issues that bubble up to the top...It takes a very long time to negotiate lease agreements with landlords. There are usually several parties involved, because the tenant doesn't own the property, the landlord, may not be a US-based person, etc. I've seen some agreements take a year or longer. Second, it makes the most sense to place the units as close as possible to the power source or the installations will be much more expensive...Finding those willing host sites that are okay with giving up parking places and have a decent close-by power source is not trivial...The good news is that progress usually happens, albeit a little more slowly...So in time the sites will get signed and stations will get built out. We just need to be a little more patient...

 

[markb1]

Maybe many sites lack proper power supply. Given that each supercharger has at least 4 slots each at 90kW, you need 360kW of power at peak. This optimization problem of picking suitable places has many many constraints.

Not quite. There's one supercharger to two connectors. As I recall, each supercharger can do more than 90kW, like 120 or something, but each car is limited to 90kW. Still a lot of power.

 

[damianku]

Don't forget that there is a $30K tax credit for installing chargers. That goes a long way towards paying for a site. NOT ALL the way, but a nice offset.

Tell landlords at your work and they might bite. A charger (not super charger) might be done for $10K in some places. Nice incentive for building management.

 

[hans]

Well, as the NYT article demonstrates, the availabilty of charging stations is a crucial part of the viability of the electric car.

Totally disagree. I have a 60 kWh Model S and have only once used a supercharger just to test it out.

Electric cars are viable as commuter cars, in metropolitan areas, or for multi-car families (i.e. most people) without superchargers. They just make it viable for a larger set of uses.

 

[Norbert]

But if 90kW was going in to my battery, I would expect almost 270mph. Over several superchargers, I have averaged just about half of that. Now, there may be several things contributing to the lower charge rate, some of which might also apply to CHAdeMO and slow that down too. But it's also possible that most of the lower rate is due to throttling to protect the pack, which wouldn't have to happen with CHAdeMO.

The way I understood some of the reports, you get the full charging speed until the battery is charged to half its capacity. (Not sure about the details of that.)

 

[ChadS]

the availabilty of charging stations is a crucial part of the viability of the electric car.

I'm with Hans on this one - availability of charging stations is not crucial. Before my wife got her Model S, she drove a 2003 Toyota RAV4-EV for almost 4 years. There were NO charging stations, but it was by far the most convenient car we had ever owned.

There is no question that charging infrastructure makes gas drivers feels more secure. And that it allows EV owners to take more trips (and PHEV owners to make more of their miles electric). Infrastructure is a good thing. But it is absolutely not a requirement to have a great experience with an EV.

 

[sp4rk]

I agree 99% of the time. 300 mile ideal range is going to be a no brainer for 10 years or more of my expected ownership of my S. BUT, I would like to head to places like Door County, Indianapolis, St. Louis once a year and for those trips a SuperCharger would be wonderful on the relevant freeways. If I can find a 14-50 in a hotel so be it, for an overnight stay but I'd sooner a SuperCharger. And, Elon, I wouldn't mind paying! Did I admit that?

 

[Citizen-T]

I'd be willing to contribute to a Kickstarter campaign to fund the Supercharger network. I wonder if there are enough other people out there that would do the same?

 

[Norbert]

Tesla's reservation list shows that there currently is a large enough market even in the absence of a network. The long range is more important than the network, for a product like the Model S.

However we don't know how large that market is in total. Tesla can sell only to a certain percentage (price, early adaptors mostly) within the market, so they need to expand the market if they can (which is the goal of the company anyway). And there is not much of a reason not to build a Supercharger network. They aren't that expensive, yet increase the value (bang for the buck) of every car, even for those for who it is not necessarily a requirement. For some it is a real requirement or deal breaker, among those who haven't already bought or reserved one. The more electric cars come out of the niche, the more it will matter, simply because the niche is partially defined by just that.

 

[dflye]

I'd be willing to contribute to a Kickstarter campaign to fund the Supercharger network. I wonder if there are enough other people out there that would do the same?

I'm in for anything in North Carolina or in a state that borders NC!

But I'm guessing that the SC installation cost is a secondary or tertiary issue after leasing a site and passing the local jurisdiction's electrical inspection.

 

[jerry33]

I'd be willing to contribute to a Kickstarter campaign to fund the Supercharger network. I wonder if there are enough other people out there that would do the same?

I can afford $1K too. (One more month of not eating isn't going to make a big difference, and it's a for a good cause

Sounds like this needs a Poll thread.

 

[brianman]

I agree with @neroden's conjecture. What else could be the bottleneck?.

Some things take time regardless of the skill of the players. Some things are designed to take time. See "U.S. governement". And I don't mean that as a slam, the structure was intentionally set up to prevent quick sweeping changes in legislation based on public fads and whims.

Tesla lost its claims against Top Gear. However, litigation skill and contract negotiations aren't necessarily the same. Playing the local ground-game is what's critical.

I was asking if they lost on the merits. My understanding was they didn't lose on the merits of the complaint, but that they lost via "it's entertainment (so they can defame however they like)".

Maybe I'm using the word "merits" wrong here.

 

[Pmacafee]

Next Supercharger location to come on line

Does anyone know where and when the next Supercharger station will come on line? There was some speculation that the installation schedule had been pushed back due to some economic factors.

Philip Macafee