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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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But to where you push the pollution? There is no “away” to throw anything. The ecology is a closed-loop system. That is just shoving the problem into someone else’s back yard
Depends what you mean by pollution. CO2? No, but other stuff like Ozone? Yes. Far fewer health problems to let it dissipate/react far away from people than to let it concentrate in an urban core where people are breathing it in at those concentrations. There is a reason we build power plants far from cities.
No need to click - all you need to know: - 30 mins to 80%!
Tesla-Supercharger-charging-speed-inicrease.jpg

30mins to 80% is getting close to ICE territory. I know some weirdos claim they only need 2 minutes to fill up and that they will eat a McDonald's burger while driving and pee in a Gatorade bottle but most of us don't mind using the restroom and stretching after driving for a few hours.
 
Inexpensive EV's with moderate range are at least as much of a threat as Tesla's cars to the markets for ICE cars and oil.

While this family wants to and can afford to get one or more Tesla's when the leases on their Bolts expire, many families will choose inexpensive EV's when they are available. These families, like our neighbors, may keep their ICE cars for various reasons, but the utilization of these will go way down.

I agree. Especially for commute-only driving, cheap EVs will always have a place in the garage.

Unless gas prices skyrocket, cheap commuter ICEs will also have a place in the garage. At least around here, ~$0.13/kWh for off-peak charging is not that convincing to transition over to EV for commuting given also that cheap ICEs have a lot lower insurance premiums (again, at least where I am).
 
As pointed earlier by Krugerrand, I don't have a sense of humor. What's the significance of the pix and how did it get related to her wanting a tesla?

My wife has almost resorted to the same bad parking at the pumps. She pulls in, forget which side the filler door is on, does a U-turn to a different pump, only to find that the pump is still on the wrong side of the car. Can't figure it out. "What am I doing wrong?" Blood sugar is crashing from not eating lunch....gives up, drives home, and I have to drive back to fill her car up for her.
 
yes, people will keep cheap ICE for a while because it is mostly paid off. But between buying a 4 year $20k m3 and a new civic, more and more people will buy the EV because it runs much cheaper. This way, even the cheap ICE OEM will feel the pain, given time.

I agree. Especially for commute-only driving, cheap EVs will always have a place in the garage.

Unless gas prices skyrocket, cheap commuter ICEs will also have a place in the garage. At least around here, ~$0.13/kWh for off-peak charging is not that convincing to transition over to EV for commuting given also that cheap ICEs have a lot lower insurance premiums (again, at least where I am).
 
Does everyone else who reads Tesla-positive articles like the Motor Trend article - click directly from the article to the subscription page and subscribe? I hope we're all supporting these honorable Tesla supporters.

Also... how does one submit suggestions for names for VW's great new vaporware cars?-

From the MT Article:
"No other network of electric car chargers yet exists in this country that can rival Tesla's (though Volkswagen-backed Electrify America has grand ambitions to develop"

I recommend they call their 2022 VW concept e-bus the Grand Ambition.
How about the VW iNO-c?
 
30mins to 80% is getting close to ICE territory. I know some weirdos claim they only need 2 minutes to fill up and that they will eat a McDonald's burger while driving and pee in a Gatorade bottle but most of us don't mind using the restroom and stretching after driving for a few hours.​

So according to my gas mileage and miles driven per year, and average gallons per refuel, I fill up approximately 40 times per year. Assuming five minutes per fill-up, that's 200 minutes per year spent idle at a refueling station. So using the above numbers, I could supercharge from 0-80% 6.5 times (for a total of approximately 1,700 miles using very rough back-of-the-napkin math (325 * 0.8 = 260 * 6.5)) and remain equal to my current idle refueling time. The remainder of my refueling would occur, of course, at home or destination chargers.

Interesting.

Edit: To think this through further, I would have to go on a combined number of trips that would elicit a greater than 6.5 of the above supercharges in order to exceed my current idle refueling time. Do I do that currently? This year, I can think of two trips where I would have utilized one of the above supercharges. I think my total per annum idle refueling time, even accounting for long distance travel, might actually be lower with an EV despite the comparatively longer time per refuel.
 
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My wife has almost resorted to the same bad parking at the pumps. She pulls in, forget which side the filler door is on, does a U-turn to a different pump, only to find that the pump is still on the wrong side of the car. Can't figure it out. "What am I doing wrong?" Blood sugar is crashing from not eating lunch....gives up, drives home, and I have to drive back to fill her car up for her.

Tell her about the arrow that points to the side with the gas cap. Or better yet, get her a Tesla instead.
2BF62788-284F-40D8-A8DA-DA62C35BD964.jpeg
 
I fill up approximately 40 times per year. Assuming five minutes per fill-up, that's 200 minutes per year spent idle at a refueling station.
Since most changing is at home like you said, for ICE you need to add in travel time to the gas station, waiting in line, etc.

I'm sure that adds up to move that 5 minutes per fill up. Probably closer to 20 minutes average, or 800 minutes a year...
 
But the article also talks about costs. By 2024 even small EVs will be on cost parity with ICEs, so it actually will cost more to buy any ICE compared to a similar sized EV.

Add to that shrinking ICE sales with an average assembly line needing 80% load for profit.
OEM loses 20% of sales and they are in damage control mode, possibly raising prices or going bankrupt.

Gas station closures will not go unnoticed - they operate on break-even basis only making money from the store foot traffic of which there will be less and less. They might try to raise gas prices.

Oil demand weaker -> gas prices will fluctuate wildly as producers / refineries close down one by one. @neroden wrote a lot about this.

It will not be the same choice in 5 years as it is today.
People in this thread have been fantasizing about the future. Five years from now a very high percentage of sales will still be ICE.

OEMs will try to get the revenue they can from their existing assets. It's going to take a whole lot of investment and work and time for traditional OEMs to develop EVs that they can build at a cost low enough for them to make a profit. And Tesla isn't expanding as needed to cover the market share people hoped they would capture, and the VW Group seems to be the only other OEM that's really serious about trying to make EVs work, and they have a long road ahead of them. There will be OEM mergers and maybe some smaller ones will shut down (JLR) but government grants will keep others going.

Huge sales of ICE pick-ups will continue. About half of pick-ups are purchased by business and govt agencies. Price is paramount, and it will be years before the purchase price of EV pick-ups will be lower. And few people who buy a pick-up for personal driving want an EV.

Oil companies have bonds to pay. They will pump oil so long as it covers the variable cost and they can keep their doors open. Oil will be plentiful and cheap for years.

The US is flooded with gas stations. If many were to close, which won't happen anytime soon, there would still be more than enough for convenience.

People are accustomed to being able to drive wherever they want to go, which is not possible in any non-Tesla EV. GM, Ford and Fiat Chrysler are unwilling to fix this, and it's uneconomic for entrepreneurs to step in.

A great many people believe human-caused climate change is nonsense that exists only in the minds of liberals, which is reason for them to not buy an EV absent a compelling economic case (maybe). And many people only care about the here and now.

Autonomous ride sharing EVs might affect the picture several years from now when truly autonomous cars finally exist. (I believe that next year Teslas will have much-improved FSD. This driver assistance feature should help sell Teslas, but full autonomy is needed for autonomous ride sharing EVs.)

EV market share will increase each year, but not at the rate some people have projected.
 
So according to my gas mileage and miles driven per year, and average gallons per refuel, I fill up approximately 40 times per year. Assuming five minutes per fill-up, that's 200 minutes per year spent idle at a refueling station. So using the above numbers, I could supercharge from 0-80% 6.5 times (for a total of approximately 1,700 miles using very rough back-of-the-napkin math (325 * 0.8 = 260 * 6.5)) and remain equal to my current idle refueling time. The remainder of my refueling would occur, of course, at home or destination chargers.

Interesting.

Edit: To think this through further, I would have to go on a combined number of trips that would elicit a greater than 6.5 of the above supercharges in order to exceed my current idle refueling time. Do I do that currently? This year, I can think of two trips where I would have utilized one of the above supercharges. I think my refueling time, even accounting for long distance travel, might actually be lower with an EV despite the comparatively longer time per refuel.

You would also have to account for any driving time to get to/from a gas station. (Assuming it wasn't already in your path/destination.)
 
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Sooooo, a piece of information which I hadn't noticed: the Saudi PIF still owns their Tesla stock as of the end of March 2019. I think we can assume they still own it now.

EDGAR Filing Documents for 0001567619-19-010477
SEC FORM 13F-HR
SEC FORM 13-F Information Table

So the top (known) owners of Tesla are now:

Elon Musk with 34,102,560 shares as of May 20
Bailie Gifford with 13,244,526 (hardcore long-termers)
Capital World with 9,424,994 (I know very little about them -- they bought a lot in Q1)
Tencent with 8,347,094 (as of Feb 2018, but I doubt they sold)
Saudi PIF with 8,277,080
Vanguard with 7,737,842 (all index funds)
Blackrock with 6,472,686 (these are bad guys IMHO, run by a Fink)
Jennison with 5,132,969 (despite recent position trimming, I think they're long-termers)
Fidelity (FMR) with 4,634,797 (some funds divested after change of manager, other funds stayed in)
Larry Ellison with 3,000,000 shares
State Street with 2,857,414 (mostly custodians for other people, so no information there)
Goldman Sachs 1,854,825
T Rowe Price 1,674,337 (as we know, they dumped 7 million shares in Q1, which was really bad for their investors)
BAMCO 1,645,059
Invesco 1,613,059
Norges Bank 1,415,110
Geode 1,182,372 (never heard of them)
Two Sigma Advisers 1,144,367 (never heard of them -- just bought in in Q1 -- market timer? A quant, not fundamentals based)
Morgan Stanley 1,132,249
Deutsche Bank 1,047.903
Citadel 1,012,397 (just bought in in Q1 -- market timer? -- big on risk management)

Every other institution is below a million shares. (ARK is at 753,850.) The next one is Jane Street Group at 970,212, all bought in Q1, and they're another quant. Note that some companies like Two Sigma have multiple subdivisions, and another subdivision of Two Sigma (Two Sigma Investments) shows up later.

I looked up Capital World: "Since 1931, Capital Group has been singularly focused on delivering superior, consistent results for long-term investors using high-conviction portfolios, rigorous research and individual accountability." So they claim to be long-termers.

There could be other unknown big investors like Ellison and Tencent who aren't "institutional" and don't have to report. In fact, I bet there are. But not counting them, I'd say that 91.6 million shares are in the hands of people I consider long-termers (including Fidelity's remaining shares, though that's uncertain).

Another way to look at it -- shares outstanding are about 178.19 million. Of those, 99.01 million are held by "institutions" (which apparently includes the Saudi PIF but does not include Musk, Ellison, or Tencent).

Of those, if we include Fidelity's remaining shares and Capital World (which I would), about 40.18 are held by identifiable likely long-termers (including Vanguard's index funds). This leaves 58.83 held by unreliable, short-termer or quant institutions.

There are 43.63 million shares sold short as of the end of May. They can currently cover from the shares held by unreliable, short-termer institutions.

178.19 + 43.63 = 221.82 -- that's the number of million shares held by people who think they have long positions. Subtracting the institutions, this is 122.81 million held by non-institutional investors. Of this, 45.45 million is held by Musk, Ellison, and Tencent, with 77.36 million being held by the rest of us, including big investors who don't have to disclose (like Ellison didn't have to disclose before joining the board). Up to 8.9 million shares doesn't have to be disclosed unless you're an institution, though I doubt any hidden investor owns that much.

But I basically think nearly all the individual investors are long-termers.

I can't figure out how much money is in S&P index funds globablly, but there's $449 billion in Vanguard's mutual fund,$39 billion in Schwab's, $184 billion in Fidelity's, $28 billion in T Rowe Price's $271 billion in SPY ETF, $182 billion in iShares ETF, $114 billion in Vanguard's ETF, and probably a bunch of others with <5 billion each. So that's 1.27 trillion minimum, probably more The S&P market cap itself is 22.93 trillion, so S&P 500 funds are perhaps 5.5 percent of the S&P market cap. So an S&P 500 addition would be a purchase of about 5.5% of the shares outstanding of TSLA at least or 9.8 million shares. Enough to cause a large rally. This is why S&P inclusion is such a big deal for so many companies.

Though I don't know how much the "small" S&P index funds add up to. And closet indexers are believed to amount to 1.3 trillion in assets, about equal to the big S&P index funds, so small funds and closet indexers who aren't already in TSLA might nearly double this number.

Still not enough for a short squeeze IMHO. In order for a short squeeze to be possible, we need to see at least 15.20 million shares disappear from the institutional holdings list, or be taken by obvious long-term holders. Since some long-termers may trim their holdings and some individual investors may be short-termers, and there will likely be more dilution from stock options, it would need to be more than this. So S&P addition is probably not enough to cause a short-covering rally, though it might. However, if we see 5 or 6 million shares disappear from the short-term institutional holder list into the hands of individuals, long-term institutions, or strategic investors like Tencent, then the S&P inclusion, which is likely to be in 2020, would be fairly likely to cause a short-covering rally.

2 sig and citadel are prop shops/market makers, as is susquehanna, who isn’t referenced, but had the largest short at one point (someone posted months ago). so you’re right, their positions aren’t for the same reason as ARK, or even a fidelity or black rock fund type

for options, at occ,
the entity must separate market making positions from trading/customer positions (i.e. there are separate accounts and rules for market makers - they can exercise gross long equity options positions instead of net long position, for example). citadel and 2sig don’t have ‘retail customers’, but they may indeed have separate tsla positions, a MM position, and a trading position
but for stock, the position can be co-mingled at street level. that probably doesn’t explain why 2sig has two reported positions, it’s probably just that, like you said, they have multiple books trading (shorting) tesla for whatever reason, hedging their MM biz, and the other may just be speculative. hard to tell, but just trying to add color to what can occur
 
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Since most changing is at home like you said, for ICE you need to add in travel time to the gas station, waiting in line, etc.

I'm sure that adds up to move that 5 minutes per fill up. Probably closer to 20 minutes average, or 800 minutes a year...
Not to mention how many people will drive out of there way because they no a particular station in a different town charges less per gallon or is in a town/state where gas taxes are lower.
 
Does anyone here any data or anecdotal evidence about how the drop in gasoline sales in Norway is affecting gas stations?

Because Norway is a prosperous country with a large middle class I'd expect gas stations to have relatively high margins, and the convenience store sections to generate enough revenue, while selling gas itself is mostly at the margins.

But it would be nice to see what the trends are. Are gas stations closing? Are new ones opening? Are they stagnating or deteriorating?

It's also hard to find data on gasoline consumption on roads for Norway. The World Bank dataset of "per capita gasoline consumption in the road sector" ends at 2012, after a steep drop:

View attachment 421592

The XLS dataset is at:


I suspect much of the drop was due to improvement in fuel economy and high gasoline prices, but also the beginning of the EV revolution.
Gas stations are plentiful in Bjorn's videos. Every tiny town he passes seems to have one or more.
 
Since most changing is at home like you said, for ICE you need to add in travel time to the gas station, waiting in line, etc.

I'm sure that adds up to move that 5 minutes per fill up. Probably closer to 20 minutes average, or 800 minutes a year...

I actually live very close to a gas station that is directly en route to work, so my travel time to/from refuel is essentially 0, but I concede the point. Hate to clutter up the thread with further discussion on the topic -- but the thought occurred to me that this would be an interesting thought exercise to go through with skeptics of EV refueling times (and thus would make it tangentially relevant to the thread).
 
You seem to be getting quite a bit of flack for this. For the record, you're right (UCS says EV emissions is equivalent to 50mpg car, because of high levels of coal power plants), but only for today. As the grid continues to green (Ohio's emissions equivalent used to be 44mpg just 2 years before!), your model 3 will pay back it's CO2-debt sooner, so it will actually produce less pollution relative to a hybrid.

Keep in mind that the UCS study had one major flaw in the study. It assumed the electricity to produce the batteries also came from coal. But the model 3's batteries are built in a factory that sources all its power from renewables (Nevada has a considerable amount of hydro and solar), with no natural gas provided to the factory at all. So that CO2-debt isn't as high as what the study assumes. Enjoy driving your car!

Did the study include in the costs of gasoline the extraction, transportation and refining costs of crude oil as well, which process wastes another ~30% of the raw crude oil input?

Plus a 40 mpg gascar is NOT driven with an efficiency of 40 miles per gallon - this is especially true of luxury cars: 20-30 mpg on average is more typical in everyday driving - while EVs get much closer to their factory efficiency.

I.e. these studies tend to systematically overerestimate the efficiency of gascars.
 
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