Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[humbaba]

Eh they're lying. That makes zero sense to test the Turbo instead of the Turbo S. Porsche got caught with it's pants down and is now resorting to lying about what car they tested. Not surprised by this company.

Also that article. Gutted interior of the Model S Plaid for the track? Has there been any sort of evidence to make that claim?

Hey, don't be too hard on them: lying is part of the corporate culture.

I'm not sure why they didn't claim it was the low-end non-turbo version. After all, everything about that lap is simply Porsche's word. It isn't like its an official, certified time where you could know what car was run. Which is what I expect Tesla will do when they're ready.

 

[Nocturnal]

Hey, don't be too hard on them: lying is part of the corporate culture.

I'm not sure why they didn't claim it was the low-end non-turbo version. After all, everything about that lap is simply Porsche's word. It isn't like its an official, certified time where you could know what car was run. Which is what I expect Tesla will do when they're ready.

Oh, so we can't trust VW now? What a world!

 

[MarcusMaximus]

Eh they're lying. That makes zero sense to test the Turbo instead of the Turbo S. Porsche got caught with it's pants down and is now resorting to lying about what car they tested. Not surprised by this company.

Also that article. Gutted interior of the Model S Plaid for the track? Has there been any sort of evidence to make that claim?

I assume their source is one of the furiously screaming shorts I see on Twitter and the electrek comments.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

Side note: No idea how they feel about it, but it seems to me Nürburgring has suddenly become WAY more famous than it was a few weeks ago

 

[hobbes]

That's a picture of a Goodyear tire. Goodyear Eagle F1 Supersport RS tires to be specific.

Quite interesting - that tire was used on one of the Model S on Nurburgring, but not 100% clear if it was on the one that set the 7:23 :

Unlike the first red prototype, which was fitted with the sticky Michelin Cup 2 R, the new ones are fitted with Goodyear Eagle F1 Supersport RS rubber, which is a prototype tire that isn't yet available for retail.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...rsche-taycan-s-nurburgring-record-137525.html

If it was on the record car, likely so noone can say they used better tires.

 

[Artful Dodger]

Talk about torque vectoring. At best now you can apply the brakes, soon with multiple motors you can power the wheels differently. With the thrusters one could add downforce to the inside back wheel while another creates force perpendicular to the road to move the rear of the car around the curve.

Meh. Hollywood had this back in 1955.

R2 S3XY

 

[Krugerrand]

i agree it's a great marketing move by Tesla, and the time is phenomenal considering that it was done while other manufacturers were lapping at the same time. However, I think when this was first announced, we all assumed it was going to be the Raven out there. So it's a bit of a bummer that we still don't know what a Raven can do on the Ring.

I made no such assumption.

 

[Artful Dodger]

That's a picture of a Goodyear tire. Goodyear Eagle F1 Supersport RS tires to be specific.

"The Eagle F1 SuperSport RS is Goodyear's most race-focused tyre, designed to push the limit on track while remaining road legal. A highly specialized racing-originated compound provides ultimate grip and performance levels in dry conditions. Two SKUs will be introduced in March 2019, sized 265/35 ZR20 and 325/30 ZR21."​

 

[RFernatt]

Deutsche Bank posts bullish TSLA outlook after meeting with Tesla executive

Deutsche Bank posts bullish TSLA outlook after meeting with Tesla executive

 

[NicoV]

Model 3 reaches 10K 2019 unit sales in the Netherlands, becoming the best selling car in NL for 2019 (YTD), beating the Volkswagen Polo: Model 3 haalt VW Polo in en is best verkopende auto in 2019 - Alles over Tesla

 

[tschmidty]

Him talking about the rear seats having more room hints at an interior refresh so it's not just a powertrain thing. And the interior refresh is something that will happen to all S so that's the real problem. Usually a higher power model doesn't Osborne the lower power model. A civic type R that was a year late didn't stop anyone from buying the Civic.

Or it could just be a redesign of the 3rd row seats instead of the zomebie-rumor-that-just-won't-die interior refresh.

You guys act like Tesla should just flat out never refresh anything because it will "osborne" everything. No one in the market for a new S right now is going to wait a year just in case there is an interior refresh. If they want a 3 motor performance version they may, but that is not going to be a huge volume car in any case, more of a halo vehicle.

 

[adiggs]

SpaceX package could change things in unexpected ways. You no longer have just the friction between tires and road to maintain traction, particularly on curves, but added significant acceleration from thrusters.

It's true - the SpaceX package could change things in unexpected ways.

It also could turn out that it generates a rounding error worth of performance, and/or that the volume and velocity of the compressed air can't be sustained in a way that does anything more on an aggressive stretch of driving like the 5-8 minutes of driving the 'Ring fast than be extra weight and decoration.

Or it'll make a difference in performance, but the software tuning that integrates the performance into normal performance driving is twitchy enough that people mostly turn it off except for straight ahead driving.

My only point is that it's WAY out there, and we're really just guessing right now. For now, my own guess is that the SpaceX package is going to be more about looks, badging, and exclusivity (which is also what a lot of these really high end cars are about) than about significant and sustained performance change.

We can go on and on with what the SpaceX package could mean to the Roadster.


The last thing I'll say about it, is that if some of the if's people are coming up with what the SpaceX package can contribute come out as good as some of us hope, and it regenerates fast enough that it's an integral component to a 'Ring lap, or even two laps, then that sounds awfully close to a needle moving technology that will be adopted into racing technology.

It COULD be - I prefer to see it rather than assume it.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

It's true - the SpaceX package could change things in unexpected ways.

It also could turn out that it generates a rounding error worth of performance, and/or that the volume and velocity of the compressed air can't be sustained in a way that does anything more on an aggressive stretch of driving like the 5-8 minutes of driving the 'Ring fast than be extra weight and decoration.

Or it'll make a difference in performance, but the software tuning that integrates the performance into normal performance driving is twitchy enough that people mostly turn it off except for straight ahead driving.

My only point is that it's WAY out there, and we're really just guessing right now. For now, my own guess is that the SpaceX package is going to be more about looks, badging, and exclusivity (which is also what a lot of these really high end cars are about) than about significant and sustained performance change.

We can go on and on with what the SpaceX package could mean to the Roadster.


The last thing I'll say about it, is that if some of the if's people are coming up with what the SpaceX package can contribute come out as good as some of us hope, and it regenerates fast enough that it's an integral component to a 'Ring lap, or even two laps, then that sounds awfully close to a needle moving technology that will be adopted into racing technology.

It COULD be - I prefer to see it rather than assume it.

I imagine if it does anything significant for racing, a whole lot of races will start adding explicit bans on air thrusters, since it changes what car racing means in a pretty significant way.

Anyway, not arguing that the SpaceX package definitely will change everything, just that it’s a wildcard in any future Roadster lap times.

 

[FreqFlyer]

Well, looks like Porsche picked up on my suggestion
Hang on Tesla, Porsche may have a quicker Taycan to run at Nurburgring

The right thing for them to do now would be to claim that turbo S can beat plaid S easily and never send it to the Ring.

Porsche Might Be Sitting on a Faster Taycan Nürburgring Lap Time

Porsche Might Be Sitting on a Faster Taycan Nürburgring Lap Time

Would explain why Porsche's time was not "official". Porsche in essence just through a time out there that was impressive and watched Tesla beat it by a healthy margin. Tesla just gave Porsche the time to beat. Porsche will not use a Turbo S though, they will just wait til a GTS like variant debuts to do it.

Competition is good, and leads to innovation.

 

[Nocturnal]

Porsche Might Be Sitting on a Faster Taycan Nürburgring Lap Time

Porsche Might Be Sitting on a Faster Taycan Nürburgring Lap Time

Would explain why Porsche's time was not "official". Porsche in essence just through a time out there that was impressive and watched Tesla beat it by a healthy margin. Tesla just gave Porsche the time to beat. Porsche will not use a Turbo S though, they will just wait til a GTS like variant debuts to do it.

Competition is good, and leads to innovation.

If they use a GTS variant then it's pretty pointless. I agree on the competition bit though. I still say that all this talk is providing real dividends to the EV push in general. People are arguing EV Porsche vs EV Tesla, instead of EV vs ICE for once.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Talk about torque vectoring. At best now you can apply the brakes, soon with multiple motors you can power the wheels differently. With the thrusters one could add downforce to the inside back wheel while another creates force perpendicular to the road to move the rear of the car around the curve.

The sad part is that the auto industry doesn't even want this to change. ​

The Audi S4 I sold for a Model S years ago had Audi's Sports Differential, which was an active rear diff that could torque vector between the rear wheels, including actively retrograding one side to induce rotation in the car, no brakes involved. On freeway entrance ramps and on the track it was amazing. Defied physics. Felt like the hand of god reaching down to turn the car while in the turn. Can't wait to see what Tesla does similarly with two electric motors + regen on opposing sides.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Porsche Might Be Sitting on a Faster Taycan Nürburgring Lap Time

Porsche Might Be Sitting on a Faster Taycan Nürburgring Lap Time

Would explain why Porsche's time was not "official". Porsche in essence just through a time out there that was impressive and watched Tesla beat it by a healthy margin. Tesla just gave Porsche the time to beat. Porsche will not use a Turbo S though, they will just wait til a GTS like variant debuts to do it.

Competition is good, and leads to innovation.

To the extent Porsche is sitting on better times (which from the article isn't clear that the Turbo S's limited duration performance boost would have made a difference over the non-S Turbo, but that aside), they would be holding back so as not to surpass their ICE cars. Note the Taycan's Ring time of 7:42 vs. the Panamera's 7:38. All too convenient.

 

[Fact Checking]

Porsche Might Be Sitting on a Faster Taycan Nürburgring Lap Time

Porsche Might Be Sitting on a Faster Taycan Nürburgring Lap Time

Would explain why Porsche's time was not "official". Porsche in essence just through a time out there that was impressive and watched Tesla beat it by a healthy margin. Tesla just gave Porsche the time to beat. Porsche will not use a Turbo S though, they will just wait til a GTS like variant debuts to do it.

Competition is good, and leads to innovation.

The other explanation they gave is far more convincing IMHO:

"Our second theory posits that the Taycan Turbo S is no quicker than the Turbo around the track so demanding that it’s known as the Green Hell. While the Turbo S makes 750 horsepower to the Turbo’s 670 horsepower, that difference is only available for 2.5 seconds at a time. To manage heat in the powertrain, both versions of the Taycan reduce output to 616 horses after that interval. We don’t know how often the Turbo S powertrain controller would send the additional output to the Taycan’s motors during a lap of the ‘Ring. It’s also possible that the record-setting Turbo, which was fitted with all the optional performance-enhancing goodies that come standard on the Turbo S, weighs less than the more powerful Taycan."​

That the "Turbo S" is simply slower on the Nürburgring is the Occam's Razor explanation as well: there's very few scenarios under which Porsche would sandbag the more expensive, more premium variant. But Porsche needed the Turbo S "boost mode" to be able to claim 2.6 seconds straight line acceleration.

Conventional wisdom in the automotive industry is that Tesla's performance is easy to beat, just like trade wars are easy to win.

 

[Doggydogworld]

So has anyone noticed the lack of leaked emails of sale and delivery projections etc. this quarter compared to the previous quarter?
They must not need the positive leaks this time around.I got a good feeling about this quarter, the silence is a good sign I think...

There was a conspicuous lack of leaks in Q1, too. That's why so many were completely blindsided.

Not that I expect a bad Q3. The numbers all indicate close to 100k, and we know if they are close Elon will do whatever necessary to clear the 100k mark. So I forecast 100,750.

 

[Darkfox021]

To the extent Porsche is sitting on better times (which from the article isn't clear that the Turbo S's limited duration performance boost would have made a difference over the non-S Turbo, but that aside), they would be holding back so as not to surpass their ICE cars. Note the Taycan's Ring time of 7:42 vs. the Panamera's 7:38. All too convenient.

And all too awesome for Tesla to force them to release better times, especially if those times may beat Model S Plaid that are on par with 911 times. Forcing Porsche to show BEV is better than ICE.