Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
It is worth noting that the Roadster is a different unibody, and Musk has implied that the Roadster is using something along the lines of a double-stack S/X pack architecture (which almost implies that it's actually still on 18650?)

Since the Roadster 2 is almost certainly going to be low unit count, mostly hand assembled performance car, there's very little additional cost from using 2170 cells I believe.

For the prototype they might have used a double-stack 18,650 design.

I would be surprised to see Tesla using 18,650 cells in new products - 2170 cells are cheaper, offer higher energy density and are not supply limited.
 
Oh yes, 4 completely independent drive units allow a lot of neat safety and performance tricks, and the economies of scale would be fabulous.

Tesla might not want to go there yet though - "one step at a time".

Note that even the Roadster is only getting three motors.

(I also suspect that a three-motor S/X would only happen after the Roadster launch, with the Roadster being the halo car that things trickle down from.)
 
On the FB Tesla groups everybody seems to be sure that Model 3 can’t supercharge via it’s Type 2 connector, claiming cost savings by elminating the part that makes this possible. I haven’t found any source however that unambiguously states that Model 3 can’t supercharge over Type 2.
Personally I think it would be stupid from Tesla to do this, which is why I think this rumour is not true.
At least not at the moment; When more and more superchargers are built it would be acceptable to optimize them for Model 3, switch Model 3 to supercharging over CCS only, and requiring Model S/X users to use the announced CCS adapter.

There is a reason that Tesla said they would add a CCS connector to all of the European Superchargers before the Model 3 arrived. It is because the Model 3 can only fast charge through a CCS connector, not a Tesla customized Type 2.

And making S&X users use an adapter to Supercharge? That would be stupid and Tesla would not do that. (Again why they are making the Superchargers dual cable.)
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: Lessmog
Can't remember where I read it but it talked about there being a bit of room in the 100 packs that they could fit in the 2170s extra 5mm. But that aside I agree it would be hard to go up so I would just go down. You can literally drop the pack out of the bottom so adding 5mm where the batteries cells are would seemingly be fairly easy. Loosing 5mm of ground clearance isn't really a big deal. And maybe they didn't anticipate the 2170s when they made the 85 pack, but the 100 pack was recent enough they probably had a good idea of the new cell packaging and could have made adjustments then. This would agree with the thing I swear I read somewhere but couldn't tell you to save my life...

Edit: The names would suggest 3mm but I just rolled with 5mm as doesn't affect the explanation.
Edit^2: That's what I get for doubting myself so easily, second numbers are height as pointed out below by MP3Mike. 5mm.
I've pointed this out previously: one of the pack teardown threads (@wk057 's I believe) pointed out ~1/4" of dead space at the bottom of the pack below the modules. That's about 6.5mm.

Assuming that space is not there to allow some "deformation buffer" in case the bottom pack plate is impacted, it's plausible that taller 2170's could fit inside the existing pack casing dimensions.

As @mongo pointed out, this may be even more feasible with the bus-bars-only-on-top architecture...
 
There are a couple of problems (this is a followup to @KarenRei's post as well):
  • Panasonic 18,650 production is at 10 GWh/year, Panasonic 21,700 cell production is currently at ~28 GWh/year.
  • If Tesla doesn't buy the 18,650 cells, what happens to that 10 GWh/year capacity? Panasonic will be free to sell them to other carmakers - many of whom would be happy with competitive, time-proven cells that are enough for either 100,000 100 kWh packs per year or 200,000 50kWh packs per year. Does Tesla want to push Panasonic into doing that, or do they want to make a deal with Panasonic to use that 18,650 capacity? My guess is that Tesla doesn't want to leave that battery supply on the market - which would also come with a matching raw materials drain on the world market (lithium, etc.). So the 'sunk cost fallacy' does not apply at all here - the 18,650 supply is a highly successful product that Tesla shouldn't abandon.
Using 18,650 cells in storage might work - except that Tesla appears to have standardized in 21,700 cells for storage - they are more cost efficient, plus the 21,700 cell manufacturing supply can be flexibly configured to either be for storage or for automotive.

A couple of possibilities:
  • Bringing the 18,650 lines from Japan over to China. 10 GWh/year capacity just happens to be enough to make 3,000 Model 3 Standard Range versions per year, and would be a good way to bootstrap battery production in Shanghai. Panasonic's CEO expressed interest in the summer to invest into the Shanghai Gigafactory.
  • Bringing the 18,650 lines (and other equipment) from Japan to the U.S. and consolidating all battery production in the Nevada Gigafactory.
  • Converting the 18,650 lines to the 21,700 format. It's literally just a dimensional change - albeit it would impact a lot of bits of the production lines. Maybe this is possible - maybe it's too expensive.
  • Note that the Shanghai Gigafactory lines, if they come from Japan, could also be converted to 21,700 format, because if the S+X is migrated to 21,700 first there's no disruption to existing production.
In any case, I'd be very surprised if Panasonic threw away the lines or if Tesla left them for the competition to pick up.

Note that the most important step to move the 18,650 lines would be to migrate the S/X battery pack to 21,700 cells - and the phase-out of the 75 kWh model might be the precursor to that.

Tesla is not about building moats, if the 18650 supply allowed others to build EVs that's a good thing.
The existing cell lines won't last forever, and are way less efficient than the new GF1 lines. At some point, it doesn't make economic sense not to switch. Esp since
If switching to 2170s saved only $100 a pack ($1 a kWh ignoring all the module and assembly cost savings), that is $10 million a year in additional profit. Seems like ROI is a no brainer.
Maybe they phase it in with 100kWh 18650 and new VLR 2170 packs, that is low risk.


Indeed - but Semi is a new vehicle. You have to spend the capital on producing something either way. Might as well be Model 3 drive units. :)

Semi uses the Model 3 motor meaning rotor and stator and possibly inverter. The drive unit proper is unique.
 
. Sadly Tesla's modified Type 2 on the current superchargers only does DC.
Why?

If you have a Tesla, DC charging is superior. If you don't, then you aren't (currently) entitled to use Superchargers anyway, and if there was an arrangement to allow such, I wouldn't want stalls being blocked by slow Level2 AC charging... they should be vehicles capable of fast DC charging rates.
 
Also note that anything that improves MPH charging speed reduces demand on Superchargers (by getting cars moving out of bays faster) - doing it through improved efficiency is likely the cheapest way to do that, because it doesn't even require higher charging power or battery chemistry changes.

Only confirmation so far is that he was at Tesla HQ in Amsterdam this morning.
 
I know the feeling...

That said, while technically I could import a Model 3 from elsewhere in Europe, I'm sitting tight. More time = better options, price, build, and tech, as always. I just want mine in time to do summer road trips...

Technically yes... I have now called pretty much Tesla Sales in every single country where configurator is open and they all refuse to deliver the car without registering it first in the country of delivery. And to do that you need to have an address in that country. So you'd have to involve a 3rd party that would 1st buy the car and then sell it to you for export. And this is exactly what I've been trying to arrange for the last week with various friends in various countries, but hitting tiny obstacles. I'm quite desperate to get the car in March as I'm gonna be traveling around Europe a lot in the spring and currently don't have a car at all.
 
Montana Skeptic at QTR

Mainly discussion is that he was speaking on Robinhood seminar along with Kathy Woods(ARK) and Trip Chowdry, sorry for my spelling.

One thing he said is if TSLA will post four quarters in a row GAAP profit, he will change his mind about Tesla. Otherwise nothing new


I thought he’d been served a cease and desist by his employer regarding Tesla?
 
Last edited:
The cost of copying Model 3 lessons learned to an S/X pack esp with the pickup, Y, and Roadster developments in parallel is minimal. 100kWh packs have a double stack at the front added post launch, did Tesla have to go through "reengineering, requalifying, retesting, and recertifying (in all markets)" for that?

Nope, the 85kWh and 90kWh packs have always had the double stacked modules. That wasn't new in the 100 kWh packs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GregRF and Lessmog
Same thinking here: my uncertainty mainly comes from the "What to do with the 18,650 output??" question. Maybe Tesla and Panasonic have something smart planned out.

Intuitively I'd say that because the 18,650 contract is running out pretty soon, Tesla would be fool to introduce a new 18,650 battery pack just to phase it out later in the year or early next year?

Isn't there a plan to move Panasonic's 18650 cell production to the Gigafactory? Or was that just meant to be an org-chart rejig? If the former, momentarily curtailing some Model S&X production to coincide with other planned changes might be useful.

Tesla has the cell output to maintain an easily communicable advantage viz the vehicles of aspiring competitors.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mrdoubleb