Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.

Bought more at 226.35


Perhaps not the best choice of images to associate with Tesla, given that Crazy Eddie's was a massive fraud perpetrated by the founder, Eddie Antar and other family members. Antar was charged with civil securities fraud and insider trading and got hit with hundreds of millions of dollars in civil judgments. He was later convicted of federal criminal charges and sentenced to a lengthy prison term for his crimes.

But it did make for a colorful story.
 
*Where*?

Tesla took Model 3 reservations in a number of countries where they still aren't shipping anything at all. They're going to have to eventually ship to those countries, at least (which increases fixed costs, of course, but once you've taken reservations, you pretty much have to do it).

I do think getting to combined Model 3/Y sales of 1 million/year will require actually delivering to those countries.

So are you saying "US/Canada/Western Europe/China" demand would stop at 700K cars/year? Because if so, OK, you might be right.
But if you're saying "worldwide total demand", I certainly disagree.

It's extremely difficult to predict where demand will end up. Just four years ago many people here predicted Model S/X demand would be 150-200k/year by now. One of the arguments used at the time was that Tesla was going to expand sales worldwide. But the reality is demand for the Model S/X was/is low outside the core markets of N America, Europe and Asia. I expect also demand for a $50k ASP Model 3/Y to be fairly low as well outside the core markets. But would love to be proved wrong. Just curious, if anyone has the stats, but how many BMW 3 Series is BMW selling outside N America, Europe and Asia?
 
If I remember correctly, Tesla planned for 500k model 3 per year expecting ASP $42k and targeting 25% GM when at full production. It seems to me that even if the plan has to be modified some, it can still be more than ok. Let's say it's 400k at ASP $45k, 20% GM. That seems pretty realistic to me. Does anyone have a huge problem with those numbers? That should allow nearly $1B in gross profit, even with an average cost of about $36k per model 3. I'd be ok with that.

I think those are aggressive long-term numbers.

If the base Model 3 costs $38k to make currently, then current average cost across all models is going to be much higher than that.
 
Perhaps not the best image, given that Crazy Eddie's was a massive fraud perpetrated by the founder, Eddie Antar and other family members. Antar was charged with civil securities fraud and insider trading and got hit with hundreds of millions of dollars in civil judgments. He was later convicted of federal criminal charges and sentenced to a lengthy prison term for his crimes.

But it did make for a colorful story.

And, more importantly, his prices were INSANE :confused::eek::oops::D
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Artful Dodger
Yeah, but you missed the point. They said that their aren't doing estimates. That means Tesla shouldn't be on the list. So they have decided to do estimates for some manufacturers and not others.

They are taking InsideEVs estimates and have said so.

GM and Ford numbers are an order of magnitude more difficult to estimate.

Don't like their methodology? Ignore them.
 
Fred Alert
Screen Shot 2019-05-13 at 4.14.02 PM.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: dqd88
And, more importantly, his prices were INSANE :confused::eek::oops::D

It's a much longer story and I would almost certainly be banned for going off-topic, but the pricing really wasn't crazy. It was a very profitable, albeit crooked, business. The real problems began after going public and undergoing rapid expansion to meet unrealistic growth targets. Another interesting tie-in to current times is that for quite a while, Eddie's travails competed with extra-marital shenanigans of The Donald for the front page of the NY tabloids.
 
  • Like
  • Funny
Reactions: neroden and AZRI11
I’m surprised that it just keeps dumping with no support. I guess institutions don’t believe Tesla’s guidance anymore, I don’t blame em. Hopefully Tesla can actually deliver 90-100k cars, any less and this stock is just toast. (For now)

I guess they don’t believe Apple’s guidance either then, since they dropped even more?
 
Ihor's newest short chart:

upload_2019-5-13_13-26-39.png


$TSLA short interest is $9.40 billion; 39.24 million shares shorted; 29.96% of float; 0.51% stock borrow fee. #Tesla shares shorted are up 1.31 million shares in May,+3.47%, but down -54k, -0.14%, over the last week even though $TSLA stock price fell -6%.
 

Attachments

  • upload_2019-5-13_13-25-32.png
    upload_2019-5-13_13-25-32.png
    303 KB · Views: 35
Just curious, if anyone has the stats, but how many BMW 3 Series is BMW selling outside N America, Europe and Asia?

Across all BMW group brands and models, rest of the world sales is around 10% (Investor Relations)
Because BMW series 3 is a more affordable model, my guess is that RoW sales might be around 12% of all sales for the model.
In Q1 they sold 90k bmw 3s world-wide. You can dig deeper if you want: Financial Reports
 
.
I’m surprised that it just keeps dumping with no support. I guess institutions don’t believe Tesla’s guidance anymore, I don’t blame em. Hopefully Tesla can actually deliver 90-100k cars, any less and this stock is just toast. (For now)

Don't think they will be toast without 90K. Everyone needs to factor in Macro env.
Hopefully, the Q1 in transit deliveries for China will act as buffer for Q2.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bdy0627
If TSLA is disconnected from Tesla, as some have suggested, what's the opinion on course of action? Sell all shares, but continue to support the mission by buying the products and sharing the experience with other people?

If it were to reconnect with Tesla in the future, how would we know? What kind of indicators to watch for?
 
  • Informative
Reactions: capster
Been busy for a while and haven't tracked all the posts here.

But do we have some estimates on the S/X sales and TM3 sales in this quarter? I read a few scattered reports that S/X is not looking good for Netherlands and Norway.

Ships with model 3s are just about arriving in Europe. In Norway there has been a steady delivery of between 30 and 60 cars every weekday. I don't think anybody knows where those cars are coming from. Either inventory from last quarter, which would be a lot of inventory, or they might receive a slow and steady delivery of cars on ships we don't know anything about.

Tesla Registration Stats (Norway)

Tesla Carriers
 
According to Ihor Dusaniwsky, short interest is up to 39.24M shares -- the highest it has been in a year and approaching the highest levels ever by share count (by percent of float it has been much higher, for example in late 2012/early 2013). It is also an increase of 14.5 million shares from January 31, exaggerating the downward pressure on the stock.

Ihor Dusaniwsky on Twitter

Historically Tesla has had a strong pattern of "short low, cover high" with peak shorting when the share price was lowest. I have documented this a few times, including in the post below from June 2017. The same pattern occurred again last year about this time. Pretty amazing.

This time could be different, of course.:)

It has been interesting to watch short interest drop over the past 8 months or so as the share price has increased, so I decided to run a chart comparing SP to short interest (by percent of float) to see if this was an aberration or the norm.

From the chart below it seems clear that sell low, buy high has been the short sellers' pattern over the years, at least for the major price moves. Short interest was at a historic high of about 62% of float in November 2012 when SP was ~$30, and it dropped in half to around 30% as the SP ran upward through $100 in 2013. By late 2013, shorts had piled in again with short interest reaching nearly 50% as the SP dipped from $180 to $120. Then shorts bought/covered as the SP rose again up to ~$280 in late 2014. Short interest then stayed on the low side for a while as prices stayed relatively high until shorts again sold the dip down to ~$150 in early 2016. Shorts then covered again as the SP rose and sold short into the dip yet again in late 2016, before buying the recent rise into the $300s.

There have been some exceptions on some of the smaller price moves but it appears that the strong tendency of shorts has been to short sell when prices have been low and cover when prices are high -- which is exactly backwards.

This suggests that on average shorts are engaging in very costly herd behavior -- diving in as the SP drops and then covering (or being forced to cover by margin calls) as the price rises. So on average their returns are likely to be much worse than would be predicted just by looking at changes in the share price (which would be awful to begin with).

Based on the chart, it is tempting to conclude that shorts are being overly influenced by FUD and/or engaging in momentum investing based on perceived weakness in the SP, and are getting crushed in the process. This sell low, buy high pattern is exactly what you would expect from investors acting on emotions rather than facts and cold, hard analysis.

Also, the chart suggests that, as basic laws of supply and demand would predict, increased short interest appears to be correlated with depressed SPs, leading to buying opportunities. Short interest currently is low compared to historic TSLA numbers but very high compared to market norms. This high short interest tends to artificially depress the SP, even leaving aside the FUD and market manipulations that come along with it.

In the long run, I personally believe shorts will be forced to exit which will tend to provide upward pressure on the SP. But it is unclear how long that will take even if Tesla executes well through the Model 3 launch, etc. It is also possible that if Tesla encounters problems with Model 3 launch, macro difficulties, etc. shorts will pile back in again as the SP drops, which will probably at least temporarily exaggerate any downward price movements, just as short covering should tend to add fuel to strong upward price movements.

View attachment 236108
 
Last edited: